Modern Samurai Project Black Belt Standards

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm pretty certain that no one has discussed payment for anything.
Where is this coming from?

You've got to take the class to get the geegaw, don't you?

 

[Coach]

If he delivers on the promise what is the problem?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If he delivers on the promise what is the problem?

Post #31.

 

[riverman67]

You've got to take the class to get the geegaw, don't you?

Only if I want the geegaw, I don't . I wouldn't mind owning some of the skill it represents though.
I would probably take the class on its own merits without the shot at a geegaw if the opportunity presents itself.
I've attended your class and gotten quite a bit out of it, I will again when the schedules line up.
I still don't understand how his comment is remotely relevant.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Only if I want the geegaw, I don't . I wouldn't mind owning some of the skill it represents though.
I would probably take the class on its own merits without the shot at a geegaw if the opportunity presents itself.
I've attended your class and gotten quite a bit out of it, I will again when the schedules line up.
I still don't understand how his comment is remotely relevant.

Oh, I think he's likely just being cranky. That doesn't change the fact you've got to have something to set you apart, some way to market yourself, if you want to make a living as a trainer in an increasingly crowded space. You need some draw to get people to pay you, in other words. Some people have a certain background/experience level, some have a proven technical ability, some have big social media presences, some have a mixture. The geegaw is just another marketing frontier.

 

[AsianJedi]

You don't have to take the class. You just need to do it in front of me to get the patch. Fortunately or unfortunately, the two usually coincide.

That said, my classes are filling fine without the standard/geegaw. It is interesting how many people are giving it a whirl and discovering things about their shooting and getting better.

Whether or not these standards appeal to you or the patch is a worthy endeavor, that is solely up to the individual.

 

[Fargo]

You don't have to take the class. You just need to do it in front of me to get the patch. Fortunately or unfortunately, the two usually coincide.

That said, my classes are filling fine without the standard/geegaw. It is interesting how many people are giving it a whirl and discovering things about their shooting and getting better.

Whether or not these standards appeal to you or the patch is a worthy endeavor, that is solely up to the individual.

I have shot a number of red dot pistols, but never considered one as an EDC due to durability and size concerns as well as my hatred for how they have been marketed. What do you see as the practical pros and cons?

 

[devildog70]

I have shot a number of red dot pistols, but never considered one as an EDC due to durability and size concerns as well as my hatred for how they have been marketed. What do you see as the practical pros and cons?

Not Scott, but I carry a Roland Special as my off-duty gun. I've run it through multiple classes, including Rogers Shooting School, Rangemaster Advanced Instructor, a couple Pat McNamara classes, a Frank Proctor class, and a few others. Currently sitting on just under 20k through the gun. There is definitely a learning curve to them, but I am not seeing any loss of speed between the dot and no-dot guns I'm running. Advantages to the dot, for me:

1. Reliable accuracy out to 100+ yds
2. Much easier to make hits while moving, or when shooting at moving targets ("easier" may not be the best word..."forgiving," maybe?)
3. Feels like cheating in low, or no light (under NVG's)
4. One-handed manipulation is easier
5. More accurate when shooting from non-standard positions.

Advantages usually not mentioned:

1. For me, acquiring the dot is all about the draw. Because of this, my draw with all other guns is much cleaner.
2. The dot shows you every tiny movement you impart to the gun - my trigger press, grip, and follow-through have all improved noticeably since starting to shoot a dot - this translates to all handguns.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You don't have to take the class. You just need to do it in front of me to get the patch. Fortunately or unfortunately, the two usually coincide.

Well, thumbs up for that. IIRC, you showed up on PF shortly after getting your FAST coin. I guess TLG may have started the notion in the industry, but I could be missing someone who did it before him. Like I said earlier, if it gets people to train it's probably not a bad thing. Anyway, good luck with the RDS training. I think it's the future of handguns, and probably in my future as well. I'm just not ready to commit to one yet. As the technology improves (the new Aimpoint looks interesting) I start inching that way, though.

 

[AsianJedi]

Not Scott, but I carry a Roland Special as my off-duty gun. I've run it through multiple classes, including Rogers Shooting School, Rangemaster Advanced Instructor, a couple Pat McNamara classes, a Frank Proctor class, and a few others. Currently sitting on just under 20k through the gun. There is definitely a learning curve to them, but I am not seeing any loss of speed between the dot and no-dot guns I'm running. Advantages to the dot, for me:

1. Reliable accuracy out to 100+ yds
2. Much easier to make hits while moving, or when shooting at moving targets ("easier" may not be the best word..."forgiving," maybe?)
3. Feels like cheating in low, or no light (under NVG's)
4. One-handed manipulation is easier
5. More accurate when shooting from non-standard positions.

Advantages usually not mentioned:

1. For me, acquiring the dot is all about the draw. Because of this, my draw with all other guns is much cleaner.
2. The dot shows you every tiny movement you impart to the gun - my trigger press, grip, and follow-through have all improved noticeably since starting to shoot a dot - this translates to all handguns.

Agree with all these. In addition, 1 focal plane + threat focus equals more aiming efficiencies. It may also reduce MOF (mistake of fact) shootings.

The RMR version 2 seems to be nearly negating durability concerns. The tech will only improve as time goes on. That said, I have seen more front sights fall off this year than RDS fail.

 

[AsianJedi]

Well, thumbs up for that. IIRC, you showed up on PF shortly after getting your FAST coin. I guess TLG may have started the notion in the industry, but I could be missing someone who did it before him. Like I said earlier, if it gets people to train it's probably not a bad thing. Anyway, good luck with the RDS training. I think it's the future of handguns, and probably in my future as well. I'm just not ready to commit to one yet. As the technology improves (the new Aimpoint looks interesting) I start inching that way, though.

I was on PF for a while lurking, didn't think I had anything worthwhile to contribute until I got the coin. Appreciate the good luck wishes.

 

[Bfish]

Agree with all these. In addition, 1 focal plane + threat focus equals more aiming efficiencies. It may also reduce MOF (mistake of fact) shootings.

The RMR version 2 seems to be nearly negating durability concerns. The tech will only improve as time goes on. That said, I have seen more front sights fall off this year than RDS fail.

Agreed, you and John Lovell were the two guys who finally got me to jump in. I'm very new to the dot and still "not there" with it yet. But the threat focus thing is a huge plus for sure, and one of the things that swayed me. I'm hoping to make it to some force on force stuff in November and do it with a dot.

Glad you jumped in here though, you and Steve Fisher are two guys I'm wanting to take an RDS pistol class from. The belt patches are not something that I ever thought about as a reason but I looked into them a little more recently seeing Adam Pini and Ambrosia Terrebonne with them. It's a cool idea I think.

 

[devildog70]

Agree with all these. In addition, 1 focal plane + threat focus equals more aiming efficiencies. It may also reduce MOF (mistake of fact) shootings.

The RMR version 2 seems to be nearly negating durability concerns. The tech will only improve as time goes on. That said, I have seen more front sights fall off this year than RDS fail.

And there I went, forgetting the most obvious one.

 

[rhino]

Agree with all these. In addition, 1 focal plane + threat focus equals more aiming efficiencies. It may also reduce MOF (mistake of fact) shootings.

The RMR version 2 seems to be nearly negating durability concerns. The tech will only improve as time goes on. That said, I have seen more front sights fall off this year than RDS fail.

And for some people (and most people eventually) who can't see iron sights anymore, regardless of how big or what color, the red dot is a viable solution. Red blob where you want the shot to go, execute a good trigger press without disturbing the alignment of the gun, success.

 

[Coach]

The tone of this thread has certainly changed.

 

[Fargo]

Ok, that’s a good number of pros, what are the cons?

 

[cedartop]

Ok, that’s a good number of pros, what are the cons?

So I have been carrying and training with one for almost ten years as a reference point. As I mentioned I have trained with Asian Jedi and many others. I don't quite agree with all of the pros, most notably number 2 (well the shooting on the move part). Main cons are the initial learning curve of picking up the dot, especially one handed, cost, performance under extreme weather conditions. The first can be overcome with proper training. The last will eventually be ironed out with new tech, and the middle only matters to some people.

 

[Fargo]

What is the ballpark on a Rmr 2 installed including milling?

 

[cedartop]

What is the ballpark on a Rmr 2 installed including milling?

Ballpark

RM06 Type 2 $470.00
Milling and refinish of slide $125
Trijicon Suppressor height sights $125

Total $720.00

All of those could vary to some degree. (Especially the sights, those are night sights price.)

 

[devildog70]

So I have been carrying and training with one for almost ten years as a reference point. As I mentioned I have trained with Asian Jedi and many others. I don't quite agree with all of the pros, most notably number 2 (well the shooting on the move part). Main cons are the initial learning curve of picking up the dot, especially one handed, cost, performance under extreme weather conditions. The first can be overcome with proper training. The last will eventually be ironed out with new tech, and the middle only matters to some people.

That's interesting to me. That was one of the things that stood out immediately to me, and also the three other guys I shoot with regularly, who run dots on handguns.

Fargo - the biggest con is figuring out what works for you for picking up the dot. And then, cost. In terms of that, it varies on who you have do the milling, or if you go with a factory-cut gun, like the MOS. It will also depend on what price you find the RMR. Including the cost of the gun, and all of the milling, as well as all of the ancillary parts (RMR, Surefire X300U, KKM barrel and comp, internals, SAI magwell, and cost of the frame work (stippling, undercutting trigger guard, removing finger grooves) - my cost for the Roland Special was right at $2100. That includes Blue Label pricing on the Gen 3 G19, and some LE pricing on some of the other stuff. My frame and slide work was all done by ATEi.