My opinion about the Economy

[Duncan]

From -Duncan's post above

If I may .. on the ' Greed " aspect , my words not yours .
We all have a certain amount of greed if ;you will .
We want things .. the reason the aspect of greed comes in when you act immorally . Steal or cheat and a person knows when they are doing it even if the law does not forbid it .
If it were not for the desire for better things and a better live style you would not have capitol investment . IE - stock market - traders / investors and yes any of you guys with a 401k fall into that category .
With out people " investing " in their own future things will not improve for us all .
The problem that we have seen in corporate America is the lack of restraint .
Internally and externally .
Internal - moral character - self restraint / discipline .
External - the PROPER laws and enforcement of them .
When I say proper I mean ones that ensure a FAIR playing field and protect the investor / people from the age old problem of stealing and cheating .

THANKS
Duncan

Duncan -

I totally agree with the premise that stealing and cheating should be guarded against. One minor problem in your thoughts above... is it the fault of the lender, for example, that Joe SeexPack in CA bought more house than he can afford? Or is it the fault of the bank? Or is it the fault of the Gubbamint? Who did what morally wrong?

Stock market losses could face the same scrutiny - is it the person's responsibility to inform themselves? Or the broker's responsibility to guard them against loss? That line can get opinionated and fuzzy it seems....

Answer :
All three .
The borrower was stupid - in some cases .
THe lenders were improperly greedy or committed fraud - as we have found out .
The US Government set the stage with the laws they passed to mandate that minorities that had bad credit be given loans the should not get .
American Thinker: Why the Mortgage Crisis Happened

Thanks
Duncan

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

I'd like to take that one step further, if I may. Power is definately a very poor example of the Free Market, because it IS so heavily regulated. Our gubbamint has it's fingers so deeply entwined in the generation and delivery of power it's sickening.
There are many many other sources of electricity not provided by the major utility companies. More and more people are 'stepping off the grid' by using them, as this continues, we will see that a true free market in electricity begin to develop. We will also see the Major Distributors start to cry foul and call for tighter regulation of those alternative sources because they will be losing market share. When our government is willing to support the Level Playing field theory and step in with regulation, what incentive does a business have to truely advance and offer a superior product or service in order to be competative?

Some level of rules is necessary on the GRID... since the laws of physics dictate that you have to synch to add power to the grid. And if you screw up, you can cause physical harm to other things (generators, load) on the grid. So ya GOTTA have some rules...

That said, if you are not on the grid, you can set it up pretty much any way you want... and in that I agree with your statement above wholeheartedly. If you're providing power to your own stuff (or even a "mini-grid" of you and a few neighbors... ) then it should be unregulated. Only thing you don't want to/can't do is interconnect with the main grid. Then the rules thing comes into play....

Haven't considered going off the grid myself, given my location, doesn't make sense. But I have friends who live where it does make sense... and good for them if they want to.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Hey, I hope you're right. My fiance agrees with dems on social issues, and thinks welfare is necessary, so she claims that's her party. She's not socialist by any means, just fallen into some of the traps that liberals like to set. i.e. "If you cut welfare you will be kicking granny out on the street." But she's still in college too. So hopefully she'll grow out of it. lol I'm hopeful at least.

Edit: For the record, when I say I hope you're right, I mean I hope my fiance changes her mind. lol

Most college bound young adults (see, I didn't call you a kid) are liberal. That's because they have lived a life full of having things handed to them. A life where it's not "fair" they have to go to be at 9:00 when Johnny down the street gets to stay up until 9:30. They are on their own for the first time, and they have arrived at nirvanna. They can do what they want when they want. They are going to right all the unfair wrongs visited against them.

It's not until they graduate and have to get jobs, start making car payments, house payments, get married, raise children that they see that maybe if they paid a little less in taxes they would be able to get by better. That they want to keep bad influences away from their kids. That they have to buy their own stuff and don't want their friends coming over and destroying it. They start to see their own mortality and want to make a difference.

I had a teacher in high school that used to tell use all kids should be liberal and if you have a balanced life you'll grow conservative as you age. I never really knew what he meant until I got into my mid 30s.

 

[Duncan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmedProgrammer

If I may .. on the ' Greed " aspect , my words not yours .
We all have a certain amount of greed if ;you will .
We want things .. the reason the aspect of greed comes in when you act immorally . Steal or cheat and a person knows when they are doing it even if the law does not forbid it .
If it were not for the desire for better things and a better live style you would not have capitol investment . IE - stock market - traders / investors and yes any of you guys with a 401k fall into that category .
With out people " investing " in their own future things will not improve for us all .
The problem that we have seen in corporate America is the lack of restraint .
Internally and externally .
Internal - moral character - self restraint / discipline .
External - the PROPER laws and enforcement of them .
When I say proper I mean ones that ensure a FAIR playing field and protect the investor / people from the age old problem of stealing and cheating .

THANKS
Duncan

I'm fuzzy on that whole lack of restraint thing. Can you explain it to me? While you're at it what constitutes fair?

Restraint ;
Doing what if proper when your desire wants you to do what is wrong .
I have been tempted to do many wrong things in my life .. and yes I have given in to some of them .
I would like to think that I have resisted more than I caved into .

As Jefferson said , “The selfish spirit of commerce knows no country, and feels no passion of principle but that of gain”
Along with that different business in different industries have no " restraint " when it comes to doing the proper thing IE not cheating or stealing and acting in proper manner .. the examples are numerous .. the bank and GM bail outs are just one example , legal ( from their view point ) but morally reprehensible to use the system for personal gain at the peril of the public treasury .

Fair : In this conversation :
Where one person is not GIVEN or HINDERED with an unfair / special advantage over another .
IE : Government has set up many laws and situations that favor a specific business or industry over another .
IE special tax breaks .. exemptions to rules or taxes or regulations that other people in the industry have to comply with .
Government is suppose to ensure a level , FAIR playing field for all participants to use their own ability to their own maximum potential .

I hope I explained it .

Thanks
Duncan

 

[Duncan]

I think the free market is a great idea. I just wish we would give it a try.

Well said
Duncan

 

[Duncan]

And I have posted this before - but I think it DEFINITELY is appropriate here...


YouTube - VINTAGE 80'S WENDY'S SOVIET FASHION SHOW COMMERCIAL

If this doesn't speak to the benefits of a free market I don't know what does. Sick part of this is that people that were behind the Iron Curtain will tell you that this was closer to the truth than anyone would like to imagine... stuff isn't funny unless there's a healthy dose of truth in it...

 

[Duncan]

Of those that would like to see how the housing mess got going .. starting in 1933 .
There is a real easy to read article giving the time line on it .
Thanks
Duncan

American Thinker: Why the Mortgage Crisis Happened

 

[Arthur Dent]

Not to resort to name calling and other childish games, but Wiskey Tango Foxtrot, Mr Dent? What have you been reading? If you advocate research, please do a little on your own. Read some authors who AREN'T followers of the Keynesian economic model. http://www.biorationalinstitute.com/zcontent/alpha_strategy.pdf. I will even suggest one to get started. Written by John Pugsley, "The Alpha Strategy" is available as a FREE download in PDF form. Pugsley offers the alternative view of the Austrian school of econmics.

Thanks for the link. It's a very good read.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

So basically you are saying that just because the Government and/or the bank told people they could afford it than those people did nothing wrong? I believe it is the people's responsibility to know for themselves what they can and can't afford. You think I would listen to some banker tell me what he thinks I can afford, hell no!

I'm not saying people should not be held responsible for their own actions. However, if a Bank knows damn well someone can not afford a car or mortgage payment. Why in the hell would they approve it? That's like handing a loaded gun to a kid and saying shoot at the target while you just sit back.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

1. Government: They have money printed off like the **** grows on trees. Plus they do a superb job at wasting it.
2. Major corporations: They outsource which takes jobs away from Americans and destroys American industry. Also the hiring of Illegals who send part of their earnings back home. They too take American jobs away from Americans. They are nothing but useless cheap labor. Plus they are not paying their F'n taxes. In my opinion any company who outsources are hires Illegals should have to pay higher taxes.
3. Banks: For giving loans to people they know damn well can not make their payments.
4. Credit card companies: They give cards to people they damn well know can not make their payments.

It all comes down to greed.

 

[Stschil]

Of those that would like to see how the housing mess got going .. starting in 1933 .
There is a real easy to read article giving the time line on it .
Thanks
Duncan

American Thinker: Why the Mortgage Crisis Happened

Great stuff! Thanks Duncan.

Thanks for the link. It's a very good read.

You're welcome, Sir.

 

[Indy317]

I'm not saying people should not be held responsible for their own actions. However, if a Bank knows damn well someone can not afford a car or mortgage payment. Why in the hell would they approve it? That's like handing a loaded gun to a kid and saying shoot at the target while you just sit back.

New we are comparing something that could lead to a human death to a $100K-$200K financial business transaction.

#1: The government should tell any person(s) who they must loan money too.

#2: Any person(s) should be allowed to loan money to whoever they want and it shouldn't take 10+ pages of required disclosures to do that.

#3: Any person to loans money to someone should have a right, through the court system, to try and recoup the money so long as that is part of the contract.

#4: The government shouldn't bailout any party to such a transaction. If that means both parties lose, so be it.