My opinion about the Economy

[Arthur Dent]

Try again. I said government intervention screws things up. The other factors are kept in check WITHOUT it.

I couldn't agree with you more. If so called government regulation wasn't in place the big bad free market bankers wouldn't have loaned money to high risk people.

Who wouldn't stay at the poker table all night when you know your buddies are going to keep fronting you more money to play?

It's more accurate to say that government regulations actually help. By not letting businesses steamroll everybody we're all better off for it. Look at California and their electricity problems a few years back. Regulations are lifted. Prices shot through the roof and suddenly there is a lack of service. Giving business free reign is a failed experiment.

 

[Stschil]

It's more accurate to say that government regulations actually help. By not letting businesses steamroll everybody we're all better off for it. Look at California and their electricity problems a few years back. Regulations are lifted. Prices shot through the roof and suddenly there is a lack of service. Giving business free reign is a failed experiment.

Prices sored because the electrical service industry had been operating at a near loss due to long time government regulation. Had the regulation never been put in to place, the people of the left coast would have been subjected to what most others in the country suffered over the same time period. A gradual increase in cost. Government regulation NEVER helps the free market. It only helps those who want to "cash in" on what someone else has done. Business should be allowed to charge whatever they want for their service/product. I don't care if Shell says a gallon of gas is $100.00,,,,the free market will keep prices in check because it's the consumers who will eventually determine the actual "VALUE" of the product or service.

 

[sadclownwp]

Overpopulation... Yes that's right, I said it. More people means we need more food, oil, resources etc. etc. At some point it will be impossible to keep up with. Not to mention all those that really can't afford children, yet they keep on having them and expect everyone else to pay for them.

I have been saying for years they need to control population. Having children is a god given right. But when it becomes my problem ie. my tax dollars going to feed these kids, then I should get a say on if you can have more. That might make me a horrible person, but if you can't afford to feed the kids you have, you should not be allowed to have any more. I won't even start in on all the druggie babies, poor kids. There needs to be a way to sterilize people, because I'm sick of having to pay for other peoples kids.

 

[Arthur Dent]

Prices sored because the electrical service industry had been operating at a near loss due to long time government regulation. Had the regulation never been put in to place, the people of the left coast would have been subjected to what most others in the country suffered over the same time period. A gradual increase in cost. Government regulation NEVER helps the free market. It only helps those who want to "cash in" on what someone else has done. Business should be allowed to charge whatever they want for their service/product. I don't care if Shell says a gallon of gas is $100.00,,,,the free market will keep prices in check because it's the consumers who will eventually determine the actual "VALUE" of the product or service.

That's what the profiteers want you to believe. Deregulate and privatize. The surest way to destroy an economy.

Electricity deregulation around the world
Marketisation and Deregulation of Electricity

Deregulation and privatization! What a success!

 

[8baller]

Everyone knows that the Economy sucks, right? The question is, why does it suck? What could have caused this disaster? Well here are a few reasons I believe it is the way it is.

Greed... It's everywhere, and will always be there. From the CEO's of big business to our Politicians it is unescapable.
Laziness... More and more people have the "I'm entitled" attitude. They believe they deserve everything handed to them which isn't so.
Stupidity... Not just our elected officials, but those who voted for them. Those who actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths. They lie! How else do you think they got there, their charm?
Illegals... Not only are they stealing our jobs, they are not paying into the system causing it to be lopsided. In addition these people move here to have a better life yet they try to change everything to be more like their Home Country. If you like your Country so much, go the hell back!
Outsourcing... Capitalism is a good thing, but at what cost. I honestly believe that these companies are run by idiots. Sure they save money on cheap labor, but with all of us losing jobs they will end up without a consumer base. Then what Einstein?
Overpopulation... Yes that's right, I said it. More people means we need more food, oil, resources etc. etc. At some point it will be impossible to keep up with. Not to mention all those that really can't afford children, yet they keep on having them and expect everyone else to pay for them.
False Sense of Security... Many people these days take more risks because they believe the Government will bail them out. They use this as a security net and that needs to stop. If you buy a car, home etc. and can't afford it, oh well. That's your problem not mine or the millions of other tax payers problem.
All this is just my observation, and since I'm just a dumb hick I may be totally wrong. I do know one thing for sure though, the way it's been going isn't working and it seems no one knows how to fix it. That gives me reason for concern and you should be concerned too.

it's like you have been looking into my mind..

 

[8baller]

So basically you are saying that just because the Government and/or the bank told people they could afford it than those people did nothing wrong? I believe it is the people's responsiblity to know for themselves what they can and can't afford. You think I would listen to some banker tell me what he thinks I can afford, hell no!

13 years ago i bought my house for 82,000 dollars..
when i pre qualified to get a home loan they said i could afford 175,000..
i was single then making a few grand less a year than i make now..the realtor started showing me houses in that price range until i told her if i was going to spend that much they would need to throw in a bicycle so i can get to work and a weekly supply of cat food so i could eat..

now i am married.. my household income almost doubled with the wifes income...we are currently in the process of searching for a different house..i still would'nt spend 175,000 on one..

i feel it's up to me to be financially responsible...

on the other hand i have never been late paying my bills.. have always been responsible.. and now i have to jump through hoops to get anything to better my current situation..while i watch friends and neighbors get super discount loan rates on houses they bought on ARMs and never could afford...most of the people who got bailed out probably still cant afford what they are paying and are going to end up needing more help... again.. people need to have more self responsibility

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

That's what the profiteers want you to believe. Deregulate and privatize. The surest way to destroy an economy.

Electricity deregulation around the world
Marketisation and Deregulation of Electricity

Deregulation and privatization! What a success!

Not to threadjack here... but I need to correct something....

I WAS THERE for the California Deregulation and every one across the States since then. I work in those businesses and on those trading floors. I have seen this up close and personal. From the California ISO to ENRON to Midwest ISO to Lehman Brothers to Shell... I have seen it.

The California situation was much more complex than what ANYONE gives it credit for - and there is much blame to go around.

I could (and sometime may) write a book on how it happened and how our system is poorly designed. Some key points:

1) No new power plants had been built in California in a long time - and population was skyrocketing.... simple supply and demand forces there.

2) There are few incentives to upgrade the transmission system - many of the blackouts were not because power was not available - it just couldn't get to where it needed to go.

3) Weather plays a big role in this... and it was a perfect storm situation there too...

4) Electricity Market Deregulation has really been simply "changed regulation" and one could argue that the rule changes have made some matters worse. The ISO's in the states are charged with keeping the lights on at all cost... and the marketers want to maximize profit. So when there is a design flaw in the market it gets exploited. Google such things as the Forney Loop and you will get the picture - this happened repeatedly in California.

5) Bad design and political screwups cost billions as well - I have concrete examples of this as well.

6) Even today - some consumer don't pay NEARLY what it costs to deliver power to them, and that cost is passed on to other consumers. This is often the result of NIMBYism policies whereby no generation or transmission can be built in an area, yet there is high usage... the people in the SF Bay (especially Peninsula area) cost way more to serve than inland Northern California - but all wind up paying the same....

and there are a ton more examples...

One lesson that I have learned from all of this:

If someone says "it's ALL [those evil bastards] fault..." (whether [those evil bastards] == the gubbamint, the bureaucrats, the marketers, the money people or whomever...) most likely it's not totally true. It's usually more complex than that. And there's usually plenty of blame to go around.

And that applies to this whole discussion...

 

[Duncan]

Everyone knows that the Economy sucks, right? The question is, why does it suck? What could have caused this disaster? Well here are a few reasons I believe it is the way it is.

Greed... It's everywhere, and will always be there. From the CEO's of big business to our Politicians it is unescapable.
Laziness... More and more people have the "I'm entitled" attitude. They believe they deserve everything handed to them which isn't so.
Stupidity... Not just our elected officials, but those who voted for them. Those who actually believe the crap that comes out of their mouths. They lie! How else do you think they got there, their charm?
Illegals... Not only are they stealing our jobs, they are not paying into the system causing it to be lopsided. In addition these people move here to have a better life yet they try to change everything to be more like their Home Country. If you like your Country so much, go the hell back!
Outsourcing... Capitalism is a good thing, but at what cost. I honestly believe that these companies are run by idiots. Sure they save money on cheap labor, but with all of us losing jobs they will end up without a consumer base. Then what Einstein?
Overpopulation... Yes that's right, I said it. More people means we need more food, oil, resources etc. etc. At some point it will be impossible to keep up with. Not to mention all those that really can't afford children, yet they keep on having them and expect everyone else to pay for them.
False Sense of Security... Many people these days take more risks because they believe the Government will bail them out. They use this as a security net and that needs to stop. If you buy a car, home etc. and can't afford it, oh well. That's your problem not mine or the millions of other tax payers problem.
All this is just my observation, and since I'm just a dumb hick I may be totally wrong. I do know one thing for sure though, the way it's been going isn't working and it seems no one knows how to fix it. That gives me reason for concern and you should be concerned too.

I would ask these Questions :
1. Where does money come from ?
2. How does it get into circulation ?
3. What is it's value ? Or What backs up it's value ?
( courtesy of Byron Dale )

I think the answer to these leads to a bigger reason as to why the economy sucks .
Thanks
Duncan

 

[Duncan]

THis is not meant to insult the thread starter ... another reason .. to many government workers .
As this consumes the wealth of the nation .
Government produces nothing and consumes only .
Yes there is a need for government and people to work therein .
We have to much and I am sure that includes the Department of Defense .
Virtually any employee of the government will say there is waste and that we need to cut back ... except my job . Because I am necessary because my job is necessary .
Well yes that is true but not in all cases .
Thanks
Duncan

 

[Duncan]

Not to threadjack here... but I need to correct something....

I WAS THERE for the California Deregulation and every one across the States since then. I work in those businesses and on those trading floors. I have seen this up close and personal. From the California ISO to ENRON to Midwest ISO to Lehman Brothers to Shell... I have seen it.

The California situation was much more complex than what ANYONE gives it credit for - and there is much blame to go around.

I could (and sometime may) write a book on how it happened and how our system is poorly designed. Some key points:

1) No new power plants had been built in California in a long time - and population was skyrocketing.... simple supply and demand forces there.

2) There are few incentives to upgrade the transmission system - many of the blackouts were not because power was not available - it just couldn't get to where it needed to go.

3) Weather plays a big role in this... and it was a perfect storm situation there too...

4) Electricity Market Deregulation has really been simply "changed regulation" and one could argue that the rule changes have made some matters worse. The ISO's in the states are charged with keeping the lights on at all cost... and the marketers want to maximize profit. So when there is a design flaw in the market it gets exploited. Google such things as the Forney Loop and you will get the picture - this happened repeatedly in California.

5) Bad design and political screwups cost billions as well - I have concrete examples of this as well.

6) Even today - some consumer don't pay NEARLY what it costs to deliver power to them, and that cost is passed on to other consumers. This is often the result of NIMBYism policies whereby no generation or transmission can be built in an area, yet there is high usage... the people in the SF Bay (especially Peninsula area) cost way more to serve than inland Northern California - but all wind up paying the same....

and there are a ton more examples...

One lesson that I have learned from all of this:

If someone says "it's ALL [those evil bastards] fault..." (whether [those evil bastards] == the gubbamint, the bureaucrats, the marketers, the money people or whomever...) most likely it's not totally true. It's usually more complex than that. And there's usually plenty of blame to go around.

And that applies to this whole discussion...

If I may .. on the ' Greed " aspect , my words not yours .
We all have a certain amount of greed if ;you will .
We want things .. the reason the aspect of greed comes in when you act immorally . Steal or cheat and a person knows when they are doing it even if the law does not forbid it .
If it were not for the desire for better things and a better live style you would not have capitol investment . IE - stock market - traders / investors and yes any of you guys with a 401k fall into that category .
With out people " investing " in their own future things will not improve for us all .
The problem that we have seen in corporate America is the lack of restraint .
Internally and externally .
Internal - moral character - self restraint / discipline .
External - the PROPER laws and enforcement of them .
When I say proper I mean ones that ensure a FAIR playing field and protect the investor / people from the age old problem of stealing and cheating .

THANKS
Duncan

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

From -Duncan's post above

If I may .. on the ' Greed " aspect , my words not yours .
We all have a certain amount of greed if ;you will .
We want things .. the reason the aspect of greed comes in when you act immorally . Steal or cheat and a person knows when they are doing it even if the law does not forbid it .
If it were not for the desire for better things and a better live style you would not have capitol investment . IE - stock market - traders / investors and yes any of you guys with a 401k fall into that category .
With out people " investing " in their own future things will not improve for us all .
The problem that we have seen in corporate America is the lack of restraint .
Internally and externally .
Internal - moral character - self restraint / discipline .
External - the PROPER laws and enforcement of them .
When I say proper I mean ones that ensure a FAIR playing field and protect the investor / people from the age old problem of stealing and cheating .

THANKS
Duncan

Duncan -

I totally agree with the premise that stealing and cheating should be guarded against. One minor problem in your thoughts above... is it the fault of the lender, for example, that Joe SeexPack in CA bought more house than he can afford? Or is it the fault of the bank? Or is it the fault of the Gubbamint? Who did what morally wrong?

Stock market losses could face the same scrutiny - is it the person's responsibility to inform themselves? Or the broker's responsibility to guard them against loss? That line can get opinionated and fuzzy it seems....

 

[yikes]

Well said Duncan.

 

[Delmar]

Hmmm, What is missing in your hypothesis is personal responsibility. I agree with Doug. Our current generation has lost sight of being frugal and responsible. Previous generations have learned that lesson the hard way and now we are again learning the same lesson, but that lesson will be lost if you blame everyone else.

Government has had a huge role in people loosing sight of their own responsibility by teaching them that it is the governments job to provide stuff! It is not the governments job to provide. it is the governments job to get out of my way so that I can provide.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

If I may .. on the ' Greed " aspect , my words not yours .
We all have a certain amount of greed if ;you will .
We want things .. the reason the aspect of greed comes in when you act immorally . Steal or cheat and a person knows when they are doing it even if the law does not forbid it .
If it were not for the desire for better things and a better live style you would not have capitol investment . IE - stock market - traders / investors and yes any of you guys with a 401k fall into that category .
With out people " investing " in their own future things will not improve for us all .
The problem that we have seen in corporate America is the lack of restraint .
Internally and externally .
Internal - moral character - self restraint / discipline .
External - the PROPER laws and enforcement of them .
When I say proper I mean ones that ensure a FAIR playing field and protect the investor / people from the age old problem of stealing and cheating .

THANKS
Duncan

I'm fuzzy on that whole lack of restraint thing. Can you explain it to me? While you're at it what constitutes fair?

 

[Leadeye]

Keep in mind that a lot of people made good money out of the demise of the economy. Congressional critters often make stupid decisions, influenced by thier own sense of self importance or whoever they are sleeping with at that time. Most of the time that decision is influenced by a lawyer lobbiest buddy waving a lot of cash. The people who made it big got out right before the realestate/stock market devaluation began. Backtrack those connections and the picture gets clear, your government is for sale.

 

[Delmar]

...One minor problem in your thoughts above... is it the fault of the lender, for example, that Joe SeexPack in CA bought more house than he can afford? Or is it the fault of the bank? Or is it the fault of the Gubbamint? Who did what morally wrong?...

The government twisted the arms of the bankers to loan to people who could not afford those houses. Now the government is bailing out the banks and the people who bought houses they can't afford. Plenty of blame to go around on this one.

 

[ruger1800]

The government twisted the arms of the bankers to loan to people who could not afford those houses. Now the government is bailing out the banks and the people who bought houses they can't afford. Plenty of blame to go around on this one.

Im blaming bush for not regulating the banks, its a known fact 95% of americans are clueless when it comes to manageing money, are their any money management classes offered in our plublic education system, not that im aware of.
A college educated friend of mine who thinks he is smart, took out a inflated mortage on his house to generate cash flow, because a loan officer told him it was the smart thing to do, how stupid is this?

If americans would stop buying chinese goods it would help.

Does anyone remember the speech bush made incouraging americans to spend money, i think it was the first state of the union speech he made before 9-11.

 

[88GT]

I wouldn't say it's without shame. Most people want to work for a living and resort to living off the public dole because it's either that or starve to death. You sure can't rely on the generosity of others, especially when they are barely scraping by.

WIth all due respect, I feel I'm more than generous when the government steals 30+ percent of my income to pay for other people. Why the **** should I have to give more on top of that?

Businesses are more concerned with squeezing every last penny out of the customer than with making a good product and employing people.

Every business's goal is to maximize profit. Period. A good product and employing people are the means to that end, not the goal itself. The beauty of producer and consumer being free top operate solely with each other is that either one can refuse to do business with the other if he doesn't like the terms the other is offering. Which means the other will have to change his terms or seek another party willing to accept his terms.

If enough consumers refuse to purchase a product or service it will have only two possible effects in a free economy: put the businessman out of business or force him to change his terms to attract the consumers.

Anyone who points this stuff out and thinks it should be addressed is accused of heresy and being a <insert slander of the day here>.

No, it's not the opinion that inefficiencies in the system need to be addressed that earns your the appropriately applied slander of the day. It's the idea that the government is the solution and it somehow can create a better result than free people.

That's what the profiteers want you to believe. Deregulate and privatize. The surest way to destroy an economy.

Electricity deregulation around the world
Marketisation and Deregulation of Electricity

Deregulation and privatization! What a success!

You belong in a Rand novel.

Im blaming bush for not regulating the banks, its a known fact 95% of americans are clueless when it comes to manageing money,

What's next? Retail stores who have to check your bank account balance and income for the last 6 months before okaying a purchase?

Do you understand what you're saying? Government control over our lives is the LEAST effective solution. It never does what it's intended to do and it always, ALWAYS ****s things up worse.

 

[Garb]

Do you understand what you're saying? Government control over our lives is the LEAST effective solution. It never does what it's intended to do and it always, ALWAYS ****s things up worse.

 

[Kmann]

If you want a good example of how government intervention and the populations lack of taking responsibility for themselves might play out, read Atlas Shrugged. It is a work of fiction but many of the results may come true if we as a society do not wake up and put america back on track the way it was by our founding fathers.