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    Lobo

    Shooter
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    Aug 2, 2010
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    @Lobo: The cousin had no idea that I had a firearm until I turned away to leave. The courts have ruled many times that posession of a firearm, even visibly, is not intimidation.
    If you have read the entire thread, at least my postings, you would realize that the charges were dismissed based on a counter-motion that the prosecutor made to our motion to dismiss. This happened after discovery and the cousin, the responding officr, and the investigating officer were all deposed and gave three different versions of what happened.

    Thanks for your response, Bill B. I'm sure you don't need patriotpride to speak for you.

    I know that the courts have ruled that visible possession of a firearm is not legally intimidation, and I agree with that premise. However, I was merely suggesting that the totality of the circumstances in your encounter suggests that the cousin WAS intimidated by the presence of your firearm. It doesn't sound like you were argumentative or tried to enter their house without permission. Why else would they have called the police, if not for the presence of the firearm?

    And I'm not surprised that there were 3 different versions of what happened. You can have 5 witnesses to the exact same event, and you will get 5 different accounts of it later. I am glad that it worked out for you, in the end. But you must admit, a .38 in your pocket, or a jacket over your belt holster, could have potentially saved you from a world of stress.

    The fact that you held up your LTCH when the police arrived tells me that you knew that the gun was an issue. The fact that the first question from the officer was about the gun tells me that it was definitely the issue.

    The absolute facts of the case are: You went to a stranger's private property, carrying an exposed handgun, and wanted to enter the home with your daughter-in-law. Put yourself in their shoes, and consider the fact that they may not be firearms enthusiasts like we are. What would your reaction be if it was your house, and a stranger with a gun on your porch at midnight?

    I still hope that you get your LTCH reinstated, as all charges have been dropped. I'm not saying that you committed a crime. I'm just saying that, given the totality of the circumstances, I can see how their could easily be probable cause for your arrest, at the time of the incident. All it takes is for someone to say, "Yeah, he tried to push his way in," and there you are with a gun on someone else's property. You are automatically behind the 8 ball, so to speak.

    An arrest is not based on whether you are guilty or not. It is based only on probable cause, which means that a reasonable person could conclude, from all of the facts available, that you probably committed the offense in question. Notably, residential entry in this case. The "intimidation" charge was BS from the get-go.

    I'm just saying that, sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor. That's all.
     

    Lobo

    Shooter
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    Aug 2, 2010
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    +1000 Very well said Sir.
    I was looking for a, shall we say, polite way of saying it.

    BillB, I hope this works out for you. It is truely sad that not only do we have to jump through hoops to practice our rights, but anytime something happens we are guilty until proven innocent

    Since you chimed in, I'll ask you the same question.

    You've kicked out a cousin that had been staying with you. You didn't let the cousin take some of his/her property. The cousin returns to your house at midnight, and brings a stranger carrying a gun. The stranger starts to follow your cousin into your house, you block his way and tell him to leave. He sticks around outside.

    Is your response, "Oh look, a fellow 2nd Amendment supporter!"

    Or is your immediate concern the safety of yourself and your family?

    Try to be honest. Thanks.
     

    IndyGunSafety

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Mar 11, 2009
    2,888
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    Fishers, IN
    It is a common tactic of chief LEO's to file against your LTCH claiming you are "unstable" when they can't charge you with a crime. I see this all the time and have students who take my courses prior to their hearing at the advice of an attorney. This is by far the most common reason for a hearing that I see in the course of my business. Other causes may be more common. I'm just going on my personal experience.
     

    Rookie

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    14   0   0
    Sep 22, 2008
    18,187
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    Kokomo
    Lobo gave some very detailed reasoning as to why or why not the permit could be revoked, and everyone zeroes in on the fact that he states it could have been avoided by CC. Is anyone here going to stand up and say that's untrue?

    Bill got thrown into a nasty situation. I'm not judging anyone on their choice of carry, unless it's unsafe, but what amazes me is that out of his whole thread, you choose to criticize the fact that he gave his opinion? Every post in this thread is an opinion.
     

    PatriotPride

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Feb 18, 2010
    4,195
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    Valley Forge, PA
    Riddle me this, genius. If a relative that you had just thrown out of your home came back at midnight to get property, with an armed stranger, you gonna let him in your house? How would you take it?

    Since you chimed in, I'll ask you the same question.

    You've kicked out a cousin that had been staying with you. You didn't let the cousin take some of his/her property. The cousin returns to your house at midnight, and brings a stranger carrying a gun. The stranger starts to follow your cousin into your house, you block his way and tell him to leave. He sticks around outside.

    Is your response, "Oh look, a fellow 2nd Amendment supporter!"

    Or is your immediate concern the safety of yourself and your family?

    Try to be honest. Thanks.

    You obviously have very little insight as to the courts' decisions regarding a person's contractual interest in a property that they have lived in. I expect as much so I won't fault you for it. :dunno:

    Since you asked so politely (:rolleyes:) I'll answer. If I kick a family member out, and they return to pick up their possessions, and they brought another family member (remember, BillB IS a family-member) who was armed...then I WOULD ask them to wait outside unless I knew them WELL.

    I still contend that the OP did nothing wrong. It seems that your focal argument is that he should have CC'd, and because he OC'd this situation came about. You fail to comprehend that of the two of us, I have actually had interactions with the PD in question. You fail to acknowledge that this is a ridiculous measure by the police to deny a man his LTCH.

    But that's ok. Continue to chirp on about how CC would have solved this issue and how the OP "made a boneheaded decision". :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
     

    mike8170

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    10   0   0
    Dec 18, 2008
    1,878
    63
    Hiding from reality
    I have to chime in that the OP was within his RIGHTS AS A CITIZEN OF THE STATE. Plain and simple. Evidently some on this board were not Boy Scouts, therefore do not believe in the motto "Be Prepared".
     

    red_zr24x4

    UA#190
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Mar 14, 2009
    29,075
    113
    Walkerton
    Since you chimed in, I'll ask you the same question.

    You've kicked out a cousin that had been staying with you. You didn't let the cousin take some of his/her property. The cousin returns to your house at midnight, and brings a stranger carrying a gun. The stranger starts to follow your cousin into your house, you block his way and tell him to leave. He sticks around outside.

    Is your response, "Oh look, a fellow 2nd Amendment supporter!"

    Or is your immediate concern the safety of yourself and your family?

    Try to be honest. Thanks.
    Lets go red first-
    First and foremost concern but if they are CC'ing and doing it well I'll never know they have a gun.Doesnt matter how he carried
    blue now-
    If they showed up together what do you expect him to do leave the cousin there to carry their stuff away on their back?

    I'm not trying to be an ass but your post really didn't have anything to do with Bill's question, which neither did mine.
    Bill, cant help you on the lawyer, but I wish you the best of luck
     
    Last edited:

    Lobo

    Shooter
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    Aug 2, 2010
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    You obviously have very little insight as to the courts' decisions regarding a person's contractual interest in a property that they have lived in. I expect as much so I won't fault you for it. :dunno:

    Actually, unless I missed it in the original thread, you don't have much insight on this particular situation, yourself. If the daughter-in-law had only been allowed to stay there a few days, she has no contractual interest in the property. If she had moved in and was receiving mail, had all of her possessions there, etc., then she would have a contractual interest there. (Establishing residency) But you always see things only the way you want to see them, so I expect it, and won't fault you for it. God forbid you look at anything objectively, and try to see things from a perspective that doesn't border on rabid.

    Since you asked so politely (:rolleyes:) I'll answer. If I kick a family member out, and they return to pick up their possessions, and they brought another family member (remember, BillB IS a family-member) who was armed...then I WOULD ask them to wait outside unless I knew them WELL.

    In the original thread, Bill B clearly stated that the cousin asked him who he was. I don't know about you, but someone who I don't know, despite any blood relation or relation by marriage there may be, is someone I don't know.

    Why wouldn't you let the guy with the gun into your house, if you don't know him? He's just exercising his 2nd Amendment rights. Are you going to let a fellow patriot sit out in the cold?

    I still contend that the OP did nothing wrong. It seems that your focal argument is that he should have CC'd, and because he OC'd this situation came about. You fail to comprehend that of the two of us, I have actually had interactions with the PD in question. You fail to acknowledge that this is a ridiculous measure by the police to deny a man his LTCH.

    But that's ok. Continue to chirp on about how CC would have solved this issue and how the OP "made a boneheaded decision". :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    The OP did nothing legally wrong, it would seem. Not every action that a man takes is right or wrong depending on its technical legality. You can state that his actions were bordering on brilliant, and I can counter that I think he could have handled himself better. Unlike you, Bill B seems to be able to discuss the matter without frothing at the mouth.

    You like to OC? That's fine. I think any reasonable person can see that a concealed weapon might have saved Bill B a lot of trouble. I've never said that he doesn't have a right to OC. I'm just saying that sometimes, that discretion is the better part of valor. Not so much on public property, but certainly on private property.

    I've stated it before, but it seems like a requirement to post the same damn thing on this board 3 or 4 times before some people get it. I hope he gets his LTCH back. I'm just sharing an alternate point of view regarding his actions, and something that may come up at his hearing. Something for him to discuss with his attorney. If I thought he should lose his LTCH, I'd have posted, "Served ya right, sparky, hope they take your license!"

    Sorry if my disagreement causes you any heartburn. It's not like I sold you a rifle with lead weights in the stock or something. :):
     

    Bill B

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Sep 2, 2009
    5,214
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    RA 0 DEC 0
    Can we drop it now? I have the names of two lawyers, which is what I asked for.
    There is nothing being said here I haven't said to myself a millions times since this all happened.
     

    CountryBoy19

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 91.7%
    11   1   0
    Nov 10, 2008
    8,412
    63
    Bedford, IN
    BTW I just went to his profile page, clicked on statistics, clicked on threads started and boom it was there.
    I searched for all posts made by Bill B with the word "johns" in it and several other key-phrases and I got no results...

    I remember that thread now, I guess I just never read far enough into it to realize how bad it was...

    thanks for the link guys.
     
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