Need some advice on AR 15s

[Trigger Time]

I completely disagree (respectfully) on all of these points. Personally, I think of an AR as something I may have to stake my life on. The lower end crap suggested in this thread has proven to be less reliable in every reliable instructor's classes. The OP can buy crap for $500, but he has stated a budget of $750-800. Why buy low end junk when he has a budget that allows him to start out right with a rifle that will not let him down? We're not talking boutique rifles here. We're talking upgrading from junk to extremely good quality with the extra $250-300.

And by "premium" BCM, I believe you're talking about standard mil-spec. That should be the LOWEST grade BCG anyone utilizes in something they may have to stake their life on. Don't skimp on the BCG.

I completely agree with you, buy quality the first time.
However ive talked on ingo till I was blue in the face with people on here that think they know better and tell me their PSA is just as good as a BCM and that I'm just being a fan boy or a brand whore or looking down on them. Facts are facts but people here don't want to listen to facts and experience. Their range trips shooting paper qualify them as experts.
so I don't even care anymore. I do but I'm done wasting my time.
when I see someone asking advice looking to just punch paper, let them buy low end. Save the good **** for me

 

[seedubs1]

Yup. I've stopped posting in here as much as I used to. Quality advice never seems to get looked at because there's so many other voices telling people to just buy low end garbage. And when someone's new to AR's, there's a mountain of information out there, and it's hard to differentiate good advice from bad.

I know most people in here haven't had their S&W, Ruger, Diamondback, or whatever else go down on them. It's a numbers game, their paper punching isn't stressing the rifle, and their sample of 1 isn't statistical. I want statistics on my side with an AR. I want something I can depend on. I want something proven to work regardless of what's thrown at it.

It absolutely drives me up a wall when I come in here and see someone state a $750-800 budget for an AR, and people tell them to buy a M&P sport or some other bottom of the bucket rifle. Oh well, I at least pointed someone in the right direction. If they don't take my advice, that's their call. People are all adults here, and they can spend their money how they see fit.

And this is not to say I look down on people running M&P's. If that's what your budget allows, great. A M&P is better than no rifle. It's when someone comes in here with a higher budget that allows them to get into a mil-spec or better rifle and people point them towards less reliable options. That drives me nuts.

I completely agree with you, buy quality the first time.
However ive talked on ingo till I was blue in the face with people on here that think they know better and tell me their PSA is just as good as a BCM and that I'm just being a fan boy or a brand whore or looking down on them. Facts are facts but people here don't want to listen to facts and experience. Their range trips shooting paper qualify them as experts.
so I don't even care anymore. I do but I'm done wasting my time.
when I see someone asking advice looking to just punch paper, let them buy low end. Save the good **** for me

 

[throttletony]

I don't disagree with you guys, I was trying to answer the question as asked by OP. I like the idea of buy once, cry once (but have the item for life). I recently bought my first CZ Shadow that I'll keep for life

Now for all of our amusement, some analogies:
If you walk into a pizza place, the waiter likely won't try to push a $90 steak. They can point you to a steakhouse, if you want steak. Pizza eaters gonna eat pizza.
You wouldn't go to a used car lot with $6k, asking what the best car is for that $$, then be yelled off the lot if you don't buy the $20K Camaro that belonged to Jeff Gordon.

I hope our forum isn't turning into arfcom (NO PURPLE INTENDED HERE)

 

[Trigger Time]

Totally agree. I've stopped posting as much here too. It's becoming a different crowd not in a good way.
and for the record the Ruger is the ****tiest AR I think I've ever personally worked on or examined. ****. If IO made an AR (maybe they do and I'm not aware) the Ruger would be it.

it kills me recommending lower end AR's but if that's what they are gonna buy anyways I'll recommend the best of the **** lol.

im like you. I've told many AR newbies when asked for advice on which AR to buy or even build, I tell them buy a BCM factory upper and build your lower if you must. I'm not saying you can't build a quality AR completely, you can as long as you aren't trying to meet a budget. You buy to a standard and it cost what it cost.

I wouldnt even own a current production colt if I could get one for $400. They are crap.
i do believe that nowadays BCM is the standard. You can go up from there but if you go down you will be sorry eventualy.

 

[Expat]

Come on guys. We have always had some of that here. Look at the 1911 posts from years ago. Someone would almost always tell them to buy an RIA because it was just as good as the Wilson they are looking at. Now those same people can afford the ARs (with the collapse of the market) and now they are AR experts like they used to be 1911 experts.

 

[seedubs1]

Parts is parts. It's all the same and made by the same handful of companies. Why pay for re-branded stuff

 

[throttletony]

Back to the OP -
Some of the things you're asking for are at the very top of your budget, or a bit above. If you want HPI/MPT, you'll likely be looking at $750 - $900+. As you can see form the comments, certain price ranges bring up fierce debates. I'll also repeat some useful info from this thread thus far:
BCM is a great recommendation - get a complete upper from them w/ BCG, then put it on a lower of your choosing. 2 push pins, and it's complete.

With the market being so buyer friendly right now, you may find everything you want at your budget. Just keep an eye on the sales. I'd expect this fall to have some amazing sales before the holidays

 

[Tactically Fat]

Is your budget inclusive of any kind of optic?

 

[Dustycoyote]

Wow, lots of advice and heat on this one! Thank you all again for the help.

Some of what you're all talking about is exactly what I am looking for. I obviously don't want to overspend on quality (and especially features) that I'll never benefit from, but I am willing to pay for a better put together machine that is more reliable and durable, and performs well. Being a newb to this, I just don't know what that floor value is. is it a 500.00 S&W or an 850.00 Spikes, or a 1200.00 BCM???

Some of the items I've listed (like the HPT and MPI testing) are pieces of info that I've picked up in my research that seem to be real value points that make a better rifle. what I want to avoid is paying a premium for a brand if I can get that same build and performance quality from another brand without funding a marketing campaign for someone, or to get a unit that is OK but I am going to want to upgrade from later (or that just isn't well built enough to rely on in crisis when I can't clean it or treat it right..).

Remember, I'm new to this so when you start talking about building a gun, it may seem simple to you, but I have no baseline of understanding as to what that means... I'm sure the technical aspect of building one isn't that deep but the time it might take me as an inexperienced "gunsmith" might be a real concern. However, I would want consider building if it's feasible for me and really does leave me with a much better rifle and value....
Another concern with building is that I like the idea of getting the manufacturers warranty. that's part of what originally drew me to Seekins in the first place. Their warranty states that they don't care why it stopped working (my fault or theirs) they'll take care of it....

Also, as to budgets. if I can get a 500.00 rifle that fits my needs then great. I'd love to save the money, I'm not rich. But if it takes 800 or 1000 per gun to get the right rifle then so be it. (as long as the cost is justified).

A couple other questions that were brought up....
I'd love any advice on optics (which, why, where...). My budget for optics will be separate but I would really like to get a gun with sites included. Not a deal breaker but would be for it to be shoot-able out of the box. I'd plan on getting a scope for it separately. NOt really looking at anything battery operated. something like that would more just for kicks and giggles for me (but maybe I don't know here). I think it's less practical in that it wouldn't be very useful in a "societies falling apart and I need to retreat to my mountain land" kind of a situation....

I lean toward the buy-quality-now option as has been stated here. But everything I've read online shows that some people feel that the Ruger and S&W sport are pretty good quality. Most everyone I've read says that Spikes is good quality, now some others are saying that BCM is the baseline of quality, etc. etc. so what is the real quality difference when going to a 12 to 15 hundred dollar BCM, LWRC, HK, etc. etc vs a Spikes, Windham, CMMK,...?



So after getting the initial responses on the Sionics and BCM, I started looking at those models and others that are comparable. I thought that after a while I'd start getting over my "AR-greed" but I keep finding rifles that are kind of expensive and the little devil on my shoulder keeps telling me that I want it. As I stated earlier, I find myself trying to justify buying a gun that seems to be more than really suits my use cases. either way, there are some I'm kind of falling in love with that are really pressuring the budget plans.

One that seems to be a really good buy (But I'd like to ask everyone here if it's a really good value or not) is the LWRC Di gun. I found it for 1100.00 (MSRP is 1600 i believe) it's still above my planned budget but if it's a crazy good buy for someone like me I'd hate to pass it up. Would love to get some thoughts on this if anyone has experience with them.

Otherwise the SPikes still seems to be a good bet. Most of the technical specs that I've seem to be valued across the AR world and on this forum are met by Spikes.

If that Sionics deal is really that good I'd like to consider that, but only if building it is realistic for me. (Amount ot time to expect to spend, tools needed, if I don't do it right am I going to compromise the performance of teh gun and end up with the equivalent of a lower end unit anyway?? etc. etc. )

Also,
I've found some Windhams for super good pricing (5-600 dollar range) would those be better to consider than the Ruger and S&W???


lastly, just out of curiousity, what exactly happened with Springfield that left such a bad taste in everyones mouths? I've heard mention of this a couple other places too, but don't know what it's all about.

thanks again for the help.

 

[throttletony]

good info here.
Not to be reductionist/simplistic, but 20-30 min on youtube will give you a good understanding about building an AR.
You could build a lower (to save $$ and get what you want), and buy a completed upper. Building an upper requires more tools.

 

[Expat]

I am not sure where you are located but the LWRCi-DI is or was last weekend, $999 at Midwest in Mishawaka. So no shipping or transfer fee, but you would have state sales tax.

 

[Dustycoyote]

Also, specifically for Seedubs1 (and anyone else with input on this),

If building that Sionics ends up being the right way to go, what is stripped lower? (I assume it's just the machined housing that the trigger and lower parts kit sits in. Correct?)

What makes a good lower? what should I be looking for and does anyone have any specific recommendations? (that is an area where I do see the Seekins name popping up. they seem to be very popular in lowers but again, I don't know how much I need to spend and why.)

other than that it's just buying a stock then?

 

[98m3s2k]

I recently bought the Ruger AR 556. It's been a great rifle. Keep in mind it does not have a standard D-ring. The D-ring on the ruger screws downward to remove handguards. This really wasn't a big deal for me because I installed a free float and it came with its own barrel nut and the D-ring is no longer used. Also the A2 front sight is different as well. Most are pinned at the top but the ruger is pinned at the bottom. Most likely not a big deal but you may want to know that.

 

[Dustycoyote]

Expat, thank you for letting me know on that price. that's 100.00 better than what I found...
still need some advice as to whether that is a "jump on it now" deal or not....

for everyone,

I just thought of another question for for the forum. I don't want this to lead the thread astray as this is a secondary concern, but I wanted to ask about the CMMG .22 LR conversion kit. I'd planned to buy the kit in order to be able to practice more with the AR's using cheap .22 ammo. I also want it so I can get my wife and kids accustomed to shooting the gun before moving them up to the .223 rounds. She never grew up with guns and is very concerned. I brought her to a range a few years ago and let her shoot by brothers full auto MP-5. she really got a kick out of that. But later when I took her to a range to shoot my 9mm berretta, the kick and noise scared the crap out of her and she's "gun shy".

anyway, does anyone have any advice or cautions on using that kit or on shooting .22 out of the AR in the first place? The only negative things I've read is that it isn't a super accurate rifle at .22 and that the barrel gets a lot of lead that needs to be cleaned out.

 

[seedubs1]

Aero Precision lower receivers are good to go. Snag one for $50-$75. I think the first time I ever assembled a lower, it took a couple hours, and I did everything correctly to spec. It's pretty simple, and requires very few tools. And you'll get to know your rifle better.

Also, specifically for Seedubs1 (and anyone else with input on this),

If building that Sionics ends up being the right way to go, what is stripped lower? (I assume it's just the machined housing that the trigger and lower parts kit sits in. Correct?)

What makes a good lower? what should I be looking for and does anyone have any specific recommendations? (that is an area where I do see the Seekins name popping up. they seem to be very popular in lowers but again, I don't know how much I need to spend and why.)

other than that it's just buying a stock then?

 

[throttletony]

Hey Dusty - you're asking all the right questions. The lower is the only "serialized" part of the gun. As per the ATF, it IS the firearm, and everything else is just accessories.
A "stripped lower" is just the piece itself, fully machined and finished. You would install a lower parts kit ("LPK") which includes your fire control groupm mag release, bolt release, and buffer tube/buttstock, etc.
You can buy stripped lowers for $40-$400. $75-$125 will get you plenty of quality.
Seekins, Aero, and a million other companies offer good lowers.

Re: your question on .CMMG 22 conversions. They're ok for practice (actually, they're great for practice trigger time, etc), they're just not as accurate as a decent, dedicated .22LR rifle would be. Twist rates are much quicker for 5.56 (1:7, 1:8, or 1:9) than for .22
In sum, for plinking and familiarizing yourself with the platform, they're fine
For hunting, stick with a dedicated .22

 

[Fordtough25]

My bil snagged a ruger for a good price a few months ago and it shoots nice. It has some features that others don't, and ruger specific deviations from standard. It has the 1x8 twist you want as well. I'd prob grab the s&w M&p sport II if it was me and shoot the snot out of it. Cmmg kits work great just switch back to 223 afterwards and run a few rounds through it to clean it out!

 

[rugertoter]

I like Del Ton products myself. Here is my Del Ton DT Sport, and it ran me 575 + tax.


Nothing fancy here, but the BCG is MilSpec, the barrel is the standard 5.56mm NATO chamber, and the twist is 1:9. The buffer tube is commercial, but the "upgraded" (a little more expensive) are MilSpec. I just put a Bushnell 25mm red dot on it, so that the iron "flip-up" sights co-witness through the red dot, on or off. It's a good shooting rifle with a solid feel to it. Accuracy is about 1.25 MOA with cheaper .223 or 5.56mm, and MOA with Federal Premium ammo.

When it comes to the Modern Sporting Rifle, makes the anti-gunners not pee down their legs as much to call it that, the sky is the limit. Like you, I did not want to invest a ton into a rifle that I will put 300-400 rounds a year through, but I didn't want a POS either. I am saving up a bit for the 20" barreled Government A2 style, just so I can relive a little of the "glory days", when I was in the Marines. Good luck on your search, and let us know how you come out please....with pictures!

 

[seedubs1]

Welp.....tons of fail in here at this point. Been fun. Honestly, IDK how a new person would differentiate the good posts from the bad in here. Just tons of fail. I'd figure a new potential gun owner could come in here and get better info than the crap you hear at the local gun shop.....but nope. Just about every other post in this thread is pretty bad advice.

Come on.....we all know the delton in the post above isn't shooting MOA. Just.....nope. Maybe one cherry picked 3 round group. But it sure as heck isn't any real definition of MOA.
Del-Ton does claim their BCG is "mil-spec".....I trust that claim about as much as Clintons telling us they aren't after our firearms.
And "modern sporting rifle"..... call it what it is. Don't give into the anti gun political correctness BS

 

[Dean C.]

Well since the LWRC has been brought up, just saying for ~$1000 it's a hell of a deal definetly on par with DD, BCM or LMT

I also agree with Seedubs I am not recommending any "bargain bin" AR's they are like 1911's in that respect


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