New Jersey State Police File Lawsuit Against Sig Sauer Over Gun Malfunctions

[Indynic]

I don't trust anything out of NJ.

Case in point: The company I work for manufactures the shock absorber oil for the shocks in the Toyota Camry. When New Jersey Cab companies went to the Toyota Camry, there was a rash of blown front, right side shocks.

Almost to the point of a recall, when during investigation, it was found that the Cabbies hated the Camry and were ramming them into the street curb. They didn't like the car and tried to sabotage it.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a similar situation.

 

[hemicharger]

Law enforcement officers in NJ are exempt from the prohibition on hollowpoints. New Jersey statute 2C:39-3(f)

Just goes to show some animals are more equal than others

 

[Archer]

I don't trust anything out of NJ.

Case in point: The company I work for manufactures the shock absorber oil for the shocks in the Toyota Camry. When New Jersey Cab companies went to the Toyota Camry, there was a rash of blown front, right side shocks.

Almost to the point of a recall, when during investigation, it was found that the Cabbies hated the Camry and were ramming them into the street curb. They didn't like the car and tried to sabotage it.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a similar situation.

As a NJ native, I can tell you that most Garden State cops don't know enough about firearms to deliberately induce malfunctions on this scale. When you have an agency who's officers and brass don't even have a basic grasp on simple concepts like what weight of bullet is optimal for various barrel lengths, issues such as these might simply be due to operator error. These guys typically don't get proper firearm training from their agency, nor are they given any incentive to seek outside training on their own. I was just back there last month and had long conversations with several officers about the necessity of being proficient not only with their duty weapons, but with their off duty weapons as well. It's an endemic issue that is prevalent throughout that region of the country, and without sweeping institutional changes and a new emphasis placed on training, qual scores and skill levels will continue to be dismal.

 

[Route 45]

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/sig-sauer-p320-pistol-problems-being-reported-social-media-tilford

Hope they sort this out before our troops have to deal with these problems.

 

[Hohn]

I don't trust anything out of NJ.

Case in point: The company I work for manufactures the shock absorber oil for the shocks in the Toyota Camry. When New Jersey Cab companies went to the Toyota Camry, there was a rash of blown front, right side shocks.

Almost to the point of a recall, when during investigation, it was found that the Cabbies hated the Camry and were ramming them into the street curb. They didn't like the car and tried to sabotage it.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a similar situation.

The fact that all the cases were the right front should have raised some curious eyebrows..

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Assumptions that should not be made when looking at issues with firearms "mass malfunctions":

1) The gun "X" got and the gun "Y" got are the same gun. Even the same model number produced within months of each other may have different components. I know from very reliable sources internal to two large agencies that tested a particular gun (and one passed it with flying colors and one failed it hard) that upon review, the test guns had different internal components. Manufacturers experiment with material substitution (ie can we make this part of a cheaper material and it still work?) and minor redesigns (ie internal extractor to external short to external long) that sometimes take awhile to shake out. This goes beyond even one department vs one department.

2) Because of #1 and "generations" of firearms (announced and unannounced), the quality of a gun yesterday means the gun is still quality today, or vice versa. The S&W 25-5 revolver, for example, has serial number ranges that are much more likely than others to have accuracy issues due to incorrect throat sizes. I've heard of no issues with Gen 4 Glock 22s and weapon mounted lights, but significant numbers of the Gen 3s certainly did.

3) The quality of a small sample size is irrelevant. Maybe you got great service out of your P220ST or early P250, that doesn't mean the myriad people with function issues that were endemic to those guns are idiots or saboteurs.

4) Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Not all info makes it online. People don't care enough to put it out, it stays in-house to preserve relationships, and/or NDAs are used to keep it out of the public view. Even if it makes it to the public view, it's often cloistered as it's of little interest to the majority, if you don't know where to look you'll never run across it. NJ was not the only one with Sig related issues in that time frame, nor was the P229 the only Sig having issues. Remember Sig was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy for awhile, and a lot of changes were made in a very short time frame. That's seldom good for consistency in quality.

In this case, NJSP had ran P228s for over a decade with no issues. The P228 was no longer available, and the P229 was the replacement so they went to it. If the user was the problem, why did the P228s run fine?

Also note:

In response, State Police officials and Sig reps tested 25 of the Legacy handguns selected at random from the department’s inventory. Sig gunsmiths immediately “red-lined” five of the guns “because they were so egregiously noncompliant with Sig Sauer’s specifications that they could no longer be used.”

If it was some conspiracy of saboteurs, they must have machined parts to be out of spec to fool Sig's gunsmiths.

This reminds me of the folks assuming IMPD must have jacked up the new Glocks somehow. Easier to assume the user is at fault than simply admit that your "perfection" handgun has issues.

 

[Archer]

Assumptions that should not be made when looking at issues with firearms "mass malfunctions":

1) The gun "X" got and the gun "Y" got are the same gun. Even the same model number produced within months of each other may have different components. I know from very reliable sources internal to two large agencies that tested a particular gun (and one passed it with flying colors and one failed it hard) that upon review, the test guns had different internal components. Manufacturers experiment with material substitution (ie can we make this part of a cheaper material and it still work?) and minor redesigns (ie internal extractor to external short to external long) that sometimes take awhile to shake out. This goes beyond even one department vs one department.

2) Because of #1 and "generations" of firearms (announced and unannounced), the quality of a gun yesterday means the gun is still quality today, or vice versa. The S&W 25-5 revolver, for example, has serial number ranges that are much more likely than others to have accuracy issues due to incorrect throat sizes. I've heard of no issues with Gen 4 Glock 22s and weapon mounted lights, but significant numbers of the Gen 3s certainly did.

3) The quality of a small sample size is irrelevant. Maybe you got great service out of your P220ST or early P250, that doesn't mean the myriad people with function issues that were endemic to those guns are idiots or saboteurs.

4) Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Not all info makes it online. People don't care enough to put it out, it stays in-house to preserve relationships, and/or NDAs are used to keep it out of the public view. Even if it makes it to the public view, it's often cloistered as it's of little interest to the majority, if you don't know where to look you'll never run across it. NJ was not the only one with Sig related issues in that time frame, nor was the P229 the only Sig having issues. Remember Sig was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy for awhile, and a lot of changes were made in a very short time frame. That's seldom good for consistency in quality.

In this case, NJSP had ran P228s for over a decade with no issues. The P228 was no longer available, and the P229 was the replacement so they went to it. If the user was the problem, why did the P228s run fine?

Also note:



If it was some conspiracy of saboteurs, they must have machined parts to be out of spec to fool Sig's gunsmiths.

This reminds me of the folks assuming IMPD must have jacked up the new Glocks somehow. Easier to assume the user is at fault than simply admit that your "perfection" handgun has issues.

All of this.

I have no feelings for Sig, the company, one way or the other. Some of their designs I am a fan of, others I find to be moronic (SP2022, cough cough). No manufacturer, especially the bigger ones churning out tens of thousands of firearms per year, has 100% QC. It's just unrealistic.

 

[vvk]

I had bad experiences with a couple of sigs I bought. Admittedly, they were used, but still I would think that a great firearm would be reliable long term. One was in 9 mm and the other in 40 sw. They ran fine but only when totally clean and well lubed. After 300 rounds or so I would start seeing malfunctions. Glocks never did this in my experience. I could easily shoot a 1000 rounds without malfunctions.

 

[Hohn]

I've posted a couple times how there are significant variations just within the short life of a P320. It's far more than just a "gen 1.5" with new slide lock and grip module with revised plastic guarding.

Hold them and dry fire-- the differences across them are striking (*inadvertent pun*). Just compare a standard P320 full size to a tacops to a RX model-- all of them feel much different.

 

[bgcatty]

New Jersey is so Anti 2nd Amendment that it's amazing they even let the police have firearms. Remember the case of the old man with the flintlock pistol in the glove compartment? That shows how Anti 2A NJ really is these days. One of the reasons I moved out of NJ and to IN 12 years ago.