Non-LTCH at Shooting Range - The Poll

[kevinj110]

Yes you can shot a pistol no matter what your age is or if you have a LTCH.

 

[indytechnerd]

Is it legal, for for someone 18+ years old, to shoot a handgun at a shooting range, without a LTCH?

Cutting out all of the extraneous parts of the question leads to the answer YES.

The question, as asked, makes no reference to the type of shooting range. No mention of a public vs. private range. No mention of a range at a LGS (place of repair) vs. a stand alone range. The answer can, therefore, only be yes. There is no law in Indiana specifically stating that it is illegal for an adult (18+) to shoot a handgun.

It's only after we start tacking on qualifiers that things get muddy. A public, DNR, range might get you into trouble. Building your 'range' out of bags of mulch in the side yard of your Beech Grove home...could be an issue. Grabbing your grandpa's 1911 and popping coke cans off the fence posts across the highway in front of your house will probably get you a visit from your local LEO.

YMMV and IANAL, so choose your shooting wisely, lest you wind up being the lightning rod.

 

[CountryBoy19]

It's just like NFA weapons. If I have a suppressor, or machinegun, whatever you want it to be, and you want to shoot it at the range, you can do so as long as I'm there. It's the same thing, if I have a LTCH and I'm present there is nothing stopping you from shooting, as long as the gun stays in my presence....

 

[patience0830]

goofy question

With funny rules to go with it.

 

[zebov]

Technically Illegal.

IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without a license or by person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body, except in the person's dwelling, on the person's property or fixed place of business, without a license issued under this chapter being in the person's possession.

There ya go. You must carry a handgun in order to shoot it. A private range is not:
- in the person's dwelling
- on the person's property or
- [at the person's] fixed place of business

Illegal.

Will you be prosecuted at a private range? Probably not.

 

[Sylvain]

There ya go. You must carry a handgun in order to shoot it. A private range is not:
- in the person's dwelling
- on the person's property or
- [at the person's] fixed place of business

Illegal.

Will you be prosecuted at a private range? Probably not.

By "carry" they mean carrying it with you from your home to the range, that's illegal without a LTCH.
But once at the range if you rent a gun there or someone with a LTCH carried your gun from your home to the range then its perfetcly legal.
"Carry" doesnt mean to hold the gun to shoot it.
A shooting range is a private property and anybody can shoot there without a licence.
How do you get your gun there was not the question, it was only about shooting at the range.

So I dont see why it would be illegal.

 

[SSGSAD]

I have personally seen with my own eyes, a State Trooper, at WW, range, give a ticket to a person, who was firing a handgun, at the range, with no LTCH.....

 

[zebov]

By "carry" they mean carrying it with you from your home to the range, that's illegal without a LTCH.
But once at the range if you rent a gun there or someone with a LTCH carried your gun from your home to the range then its perfetcly legal.
"Carry" doesnt mean to hold the gun to shoot it.
A shooting range is a private property and anybody can shoot there without a licence.
How do you get your gun there was not the question, it was only about shooting at the range.

So I dont see why it would be illegal.

Really? You think the police would just let someone sit around holding a gun in their hand on the street corner without an LTCH? You don't think they consider holding a gun "carrying?"

 

[Sylvain]

Really? You think the police would just let someone sit around holding a gun in their hand on the street corner without an LTCH? You don't think they consider holding a gun "carrying?"

Im talking about private property like a range, you dont need a licence to hold a gun in your home and that's the same at the range.
Of course in the street you need a LTCH.

 

[sj kahr k40]

Im talking about private property like a range, you dont need a licence to hold a gun in your home and that's the same at the range.
Of course in the street you need a LTCH.

Only if the range is on your property.

 

[singlesix]

I have personally seen with my own eyes, a State Trooper, at WW, range, give a ticket to a person, who was firing a handgun, at the range, with no LTCH.....

Did he bring it to the range or did someone with a LTCH bring the gun to the range?

 

[brotherbill3]

Really? You think the police would just let someone sit around holding a gun in their hand on the street corner without an LTCH? You don't think they consider holding a gun "carrying?"

Im talking about private property like a range, you dont need a licence to hold a gun in your home and that's the same at the range.
Of course in the street you need a LTCH.

Only if the range is on your property.

SJ - Zebov
... to extend the way I read what your saying is that - the police could just sit at Gander and anyone without LTCH could be cited for asking to see and holding a handgun - which is clearly not the case ... I have been to a range w/ a LEO relative - and shot his handgun before I had my LTCH. I've taken my wife to the range and discussed it with same relative, and discussed this. We've talked about others doing this. - oh and I have only been to DNR ranges. NO issues. ...

I have personally seen with my own eyes, a State Trooper, at WW, range, give a ticket to a person, who was firing a handgun, at the range, with no LTCH....

SSGSAD
yes - but was the person alone, and did they have the LTCH on them ... or did they forget it (you have to have the LTCH on your person).

I find it funny that we argue about simple things like this, and we run a 60/40 (or closer) split on something like this that SHOULD be plain as day. ... ... or funny and truly sad because laws that should be plain as day are not ...

 

[sj kahr k40]

SJ - Zebov
... to extend the way I read what your saying is that - the police could just sit at Gander and anyone without LTCH could be cited for asking to see and holding a handgun - which is clearly not the case ... I have been to a range w/ a LEO relative - and shot his handgun before I had my LTCH. I've taken my wife to the range and discussed it with same relative, and discussed this. We've talked about others doing this. - oh and I have only been to DNR ranges. NO issues ...

just because they don't enforce this law as it's written doesn't make it legal, much like the no CC in Speedway law it's not enforced, some LEO's think it legal for a non LTCH holder to transport a handgun unloaded to a range, that doesn't make it legal, I wouldn't take legal advice from a LEO, I had 10 IMPD officers try to tell me that you must have the same address on your LTCH and your DL and that is not true.

 

[indytechnerd]

So, let's take this off on a little tangent, for those who say that it's illegal anywhere but one's own private property (place of business, etc.).
How many INGOers were at the last NFA day who were NOT the registered owners of those NFA items? Did they all commit felony possession (and use) of a machinegun?

IC 35-47-5-8
Machine gun
Sec. 8. A person who owns or possesses a machine gun commits a Class C felony.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.104-2000, SEC.3; P.L.123-2002, SEC.43.

IC 35-47-5-9
Operating loaded machine gun
Sec. 9. A person who operates a loaded machine gun commits a Class B felony.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.104-2000, SEC.4; P.L.123-2002, SEC.44.

 

[SSGSAD]

single six, and brother bill, I do not have the answer, to your questions, but I did ask the State Trooper, about each person, having a LTCH, and he told me, as long as you are with them, then it is ok, if you walk away, and leave a person, at the table, with a handgun, then they will recieve a ticket.....

 

[zebov]

SJ - Zebov
... to extend the way I read what your saying is that - the police could just sit at Gander and anyone without LTCH could be cited for asking to see and holding a handgun - which is clearly not the case ... I have been to a range w/ a LEO relative - and shot his handgun before I had my LTCH. I've taken my wife to the range and discussed it with same relative, and discussed this. We've talked about others doing this. - oh and I have only been to DNR ranges. NO issues. ...



SSGSAD
yes - but was the person alone, and did they have the LTCH on them ... or did they forget it (you have to have the LTCH on your person).

I find it funny that we argue about simple things like this, and we run a 60/40 (or closer) split on something like this that SHOULD be plain as day. ... ... or funny and truly sad because laws that should be plain as day are not ...

As I said previously, do I think you ARE going to get cited/arrested for shooting a handgun at a private range (or handling a gun at Gander Mountain or ...) w/o a LTCH? No. COULD they? Yes. HAVE they before? Yes.

You probably won't get a ticket if you're driving 2 mph over the speed limit. Does that make it legal? No. Could an officer give you a ticket for it? Yep. Has anyone ever been ticketed for that? You bet.

There is absolutely no exception in the IC for handling ("Carrying") a firearm on someone else's private property, or a range, or a public location. If you got cited for carrying at a range without an LTCH and tried to fight it in court, you would have nothing to stand on. You would lose. Thus, illegal.

 

[zebov]

single six, and brother bill, I do not have the answer, to your questions, but I did ask the State Trooper, about each person, having a LTCH, and he told me, as long as you are with them, then it is ok, if you walk away, and leave a person, at the table, with a handgun, then they will recieve a ticket.....

See, that's absolute baloney. That's "officer discretion," not the law. Where in the IC does it say ANYthing close to this?

EDIT: Everyone, please remember, anecdotes are not the law. A police officer's opinion is not the law. The law is what is written down in the Indiana Code and how that code has been interpreted in the Indiana court system. Unless you have a reference for either of those two items showing a "range" exception to IC 35-47-2-1, it is ILLEGAL no matter how many police officers or anecdotal stories beg to differ. Ask yourself the following question, if you were hypothetically arrested for carrying at the range without a LTCH, do you think you would win the court battle against that? If so, on what grounds? Because other people do it too and they don't get arrested? Because some random police officer mistakenly misinformed you? Good luck!

 

[singlesix]

single six, and brother bill, I do not have the answer, to your questions, but I did ask the State Trooper, about each person, having a LTCH, and he told me, as long as you are with them, then it is ok, if you walk away, and leave a person, at the table, with a handgun, then they will recieve a ticket.....

To me it is clear that enforcement and citation is up to the individual LEO. Based on this, I always advise people (if asked) just to get the LTCH and be done with it.

 

[kludge]

There is no case history. Nobody know if it's legal or not. I know this: There is no defense written into the code.

Hundreds if not thousands of people take an NRA Basic Pistol Course every year to people without LTCH.

Heck, Sheriff Campbell in Boone County gives pistol classes. Presumably to people with no LTCH.

Entrapment? I think not.

Gun dealers hand pistols to prospective customers every day. Therefore the gun is "on or about their person". The law exempts them from the CWOL statute when taking the pistol home with them, but it says nothing about holding the gun in the gun shop. If merely having handgun "on or about" your person were illegal, they would just lock the doors on the Indy 1500 and say, "Everyone who can show a LTCH may leave. Everyone else is under arrest."

Gun dealers with ranges rent handguns. Indiana code a has a section that allows gun rental. It doesn't say that the renter has to have a LTCH. If the act of holding a gun and shooting it at a range were illegal, the cops could just wait until they were done, ask to see LTCH, and if not, arrest them.

There's a section that exempts people from the consequences of giving/loaning handguns to children for specific activities. Children can't get a LTCH. Are they CWOL too? The adults who give them guns are exempt from the law but the children who shoot them aren't?


Everything I know indicates that the intent of the law is not to prevent any of those things. Nor do I know of any such case that was ever prosecuted, so I must conclude that the definition of "carry" is more that simply having a handgun "on or about [your] person or in [your] vehicle without a license."

 

[kludge]

It's just like NFA weapons. If I have a suppressor, or machinegun, whatever you want it to be, and you want to shoot it at the range, you can do so as long as I'm there. It's the same thing, if I have a LTCH and I'm present there is nothing stopping you from shooting, as long as the gun stays in my presence....

There's no defense in the law for that either.

In fact, it specifically says if you shoot a machine gun you're breaking the law.

But again, I have a personal friend who won an "auction" at a police fundraiser to shoot a machine gun (he was well acquainted with the police in the town). I showed him that part of the law and just for fun I told him to show it to the LEO before he shot the machine gun to make sure he wasn't going to jail. He's not in jail. Wasn't even arrested.

AFAIK, Don's Guns rents machine guns too.