NY: Carhartt Jacket stops four bullets?

[eldirector]

To me this speaks more to follow-up shots than to staggering ammo types. Regardless of the round, you can't assume a hit is a stop. Follow up until there is no question.

 

[patience0830]

To me this speaks more to follow-up shots than to staggering ammo types. Regardless of the round, you can't assume a hit is a stop. Follow up until there is no question.

Shoot 'em til THEY know they're dead. Not, until YOU think they are.

 

[patience0830]

Duplicate

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BBI do you have any info about CorBon powerball ammo (I got some in a deal). Where the cavity would be on a normal JHP the area is filled with a (I believe) fiberglas ball. The idea is that it prevents the cavity from filling up with clothing material (such as denim or carharrt stuff) and beginning premature expansion of the round. I'm a bit skeptical because including the powerball detracts from the weight of the rest of the bullet and the fiberglas ball seems like it would mimic the effects of a cavity filled with material (premature expansion) on contact with something heavy like denim or carharrt. These things are driven pretty hard (1450fps for 115gr 38SA) but haven't found much real world info on them. Lot of hageographic stuff from CorBon themselves

I've never seen it used in real life.

Modern HP are designed not to expand in intermediate barriers, the issue is they plug and then fail to expand. The plug is to prevent the plugging. It also gets around New Jersey hollow point ban, etc. and lets older guns that won't feed HP reliably have an expandable bullet.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I know this may be shocking, but the media may have gotten it wrong.

From someone who's seen the evidence photos, two chest hits penetrated as expected. Two more were laying between the skin and clothing fulled expanded. This may be due to striking an arm prior to torso or it could be caught in the clothing upon exit. The autopsy will likely shed some light on that.

 

[Alamo]

I know this may be shocking, but the media may have gotten it wrong.
.

Well that's no fun.

 

[miguel]

I guess that settles the argument in this thread: https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/break-room/399611-carhartt-vs-north-face.html

Mods, please close.

 

[Bigtanker]

Carhartt bulletproof Jacket - Carhartt Traditional Work Jacket - Soft Shell (For Men) - review by Broker from Chicago on 4/7/2010

Must have been wearing on of these.

 

[BugI02]

I've never seen it used in real life.

Modern HP are designed not to expand in intermediate barriers, the issue is they plug and then fail to expand. The plug is to prevent the plugging. It also gets around New Jersey hollow point ban, etc. and lets older guns that won't feed HP reliably have an expandable bullet.

View attachment 47441

 

[Dead Duck]

That's it. I'm pulling my old Carhartt out from the closet and wearing it from now on.























**Edit - It's too ****ing hot. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

A Carhartt.

I meant which model. .

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I've never seen it used in real life.

Modern HP are designed not to expand in intermediate barriers, the issue is they plug and then fail to expand. The plug is to prevent the plugging. It also gets around New Jersey hollow point ban, etc. and lets older guns that won't feed HP reliably have an expandable bullet.

That was my understanding as well. The ball is to stop it from being plugged by clothing and such and effectively turning the round into a fmj.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BBI do you have any info about CorBon powerball ammo (I got some in a deal). Where the cavity would be on a normal JHP the area is filled with a (I believe) fiberglas ball. The idea is that it prevents the cavity from filling up with clothing material (such as denim or carharrt stuff) and beginning premature expansion of the round. I'm a bit skeptical because including the powerball detracts from the weight of the rest of the bullet and the fiberglas ball seems like it would mimic the effects of a cavity filled with material (premature expansion) on contact with something heavy like denim or carharrt. These things are driven pretty hard (1450fps for 115gr 38SA) but haven't found much real world info on them. Lot of hageographic stuff from CorBon themselves

From DocGKR, who is a recognized expert on ammunition and the testing of it:

9 mm Corbon 100 gr +P PowerBall 1555 f/s from G17
BG: pen=10.9”, RD=0.60”, RW=93.9gr
4LD: pen=11.4”, RD=0.58”, RW=97.5gr
The mighty 4.7” of pen after the auto windshield was not comforting…

.40 S&W Corbon 135 gr Powerball from S&W 4006
BG: vel=1362 f/s, pen=11.6”, RD=0.65”, RW=131.4gr
4LD: vel=1359 f/s, pen=12.1”, RD=0.65”, RW=131.9gr
auto windshield: vel=1365 f/s, pen=7.9”, RD=0.61”, RW=103.6gr

.45 ACP Corbon 165 gr +P Powerball from 1911
BG: vel=1230 f/s, pen=12.1”, RD=0.70”, RW=158.8gr
4LD: vel=1267 f/s, pen=11.8”, RD=0.66”, RW=159.7gr
auto windshield: vel=1251 f/s, pen=5.5”, RD=0.73”, RW=143.5gr

The frequent core-jacket separations and rounded leading edges of the PB
loads are a concern, as is their poor terminal performance after intermediate
barrier penetration. We were frankly unimpressed with these loads. If you
have to use Corbon handgun loads, stick with their DPX loadings of the
superb Barnes XPB all copper bullets.

 

[t-squared]

I don't think I was one of the original scoffers, but will scoff now. In 9mm, the bonded hollowpoints tend to penetrate further through intermediate barriers than FMJ as the FMJ isn't loaded as hot and the jackets shed, reducing mass from an already light round. I've seen 9mm ball stopped by aluminum siding, so it wouldn't be my go to for barrier penetration, and it relies heavily on shot placement for a stop. I've had loooots of folks with 9mm ball in their pelvis or torso walking around talking about current events.

To me, carrying FMJ in duty calibers because of a failure of the HP in once instance is like not wearing a seat belt because one guy got trapped in a burning car. .380, meh, maybe. Revolver calibers, wadcutters tend to be nastier than FMJ in their wound channel, so if it's a barrel length or caliber that won't reliably expand you can use the wadcutter load for lighter recoil and a better effect in meat.

Might want to scoff at fmj in .380 also......[video=youtube;GNtPHYwcDts]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts[/video]

 

[Spear Dane]

I like his videos.

 

[in625shooter]

The thing I find funny/odd...whatever with the Ammoquest guy is he is sort of setting unreasonable goals for the 12-18" penitration with a pocket pistol. Just isn't really reasonable and he automatically discards the further testing if the round goes farther than 18" through bare gel. If he would try them with the denim half his tests would probably be there.

His time and money so whatever.

 

[PRasko]

Prefer tnoutdoors9 compared to ammoquest when it comes to ammunition testing.

And the 12-18 inches of penetration through 4 layers of denim is FBI standard.

[video=youtube;fdXfDcY-0gU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdXfDcY-0gU[/video]

 

[in625shooter]

Out of the amature youtubers I personally like ScubaOz

https://m.youtube.com/user/ScubaOz

Nothing against TNoutdoors but he gets a little to much OCD on if the bullet loos a a fraction of weight. Which some if your older yet still effective SJHP revolver rounds tend to do.

The FBI protocal actually is a joint venture working with IWBA which the whole 12-18" thing came about during the after action on the FBI Miami shooting (showing my age)

 

[cosermann]

... We were frankly unimpressed with these loads. ...

Supports the generalization that light-for-caliber bullets tend to not penetrate as well as bullets with higher sectional densities.

 

[pudly]

ShootingTheBull410 just did some testing with a Carhartt jacket. Despite a more than fair effort, he wasn't able to reproduce the NYPD's results.

TTAG Exclusive: ShootingTheBull410 Tests Carhartt Jacket with Gold Dot 124+P 9mm Ammo (re: NYPD Claim That It Stopped Bullets) - The Truth About Guns