Obamacare: Say goodnight, Gracie...

[actaeon277]

Totes

Is that from "Archer"?

 

[Alpo]

hahahahahahahahaha



well then by all means, keep crapping all over everyone else then

hahahahahahahahahaha

a true intellectual I see.

repeal unconstitutional crap is an easy thing. Why does it need replaced?

Sorry, that's probably up to me too. I'll ask myself later, I don't seem to be in an approachable mood right now

It seems you've gone off on a tangent to the topic. But, that's OK. Everyone has a bad day now and then.

Why does it need to be replaced? Frankly, I don't care. Get rid of doctors entirely.

We might as well get rid of all the short buses and special ed as well. Why should I pay property taxes for some kid that isn't up to par?

You see, of course, where this is headed?

 

[steveh_131]

Steve argued in favor of the moral, charitable free market economy. I asked him to show me an example of one that existed in history. We are now many posts away from that request and he has not responded, nor has anyone else been successful in demonstrating such a sovereign state

An example of utopia? Sorry, I can't give you that. It doesn't exist. What we have is human nature. Since you similarly can't give us an example of your collectivist utopia, I reject your demand for this evidence entirely.

Since neither of us can provide a utopia, let's drop that argument completely and talk morals. Stealing from one person to give to another is immoral. End of story.

Standard Oil was certainly free to associate and thereby colluded with others to fix markets, prices and was so bold as to demand that railroads credit drawbacks for the oil shipments of others. Beyond that, I fail to see your point.

Liberals love the Standard Oil argument. Unfortunately it demonstrates a failure to understand history and market forces. I've destroyed this argument in the past:

Interesting case. I have a few issues.

Government intervention. This was primarily in the form of patents. They had several monopolistic patents (manufactured gas cans, for example) that gave them an edge over the competition.

Myths. This may be used as the typical case study by proponents of anti-trust law, but the facts are not in their favor.

Standard oil never had a monopoly. At their peak they owned 88% of the market. If their "predatory" practices continued unchecked by government intervention, this number should have increased or at least stayed constant...right?

But it didn't. By 1907 it was down to 64%. The anti-trust ruling didn't take place until 1911.

Let's talk about predatory pricing. A corporation establishes a monopoly by lowering prices until the competition dies off, then jacking them back up.

This didn't happen. Even after their peak at 88% market share, prices continued to drop. From 30 cents a gallon in 1864 to 6 cents at the time of the trial. Were these prices killing off the competition? Considering that their market share had dropped hugely and they had over 130 competitors, I think not.

Kerosene prices dropped hugely. Efficiency increased. The industry infrastructure expanded.

Standard oil is a great case study for the success of the free market.

 

[BugI02]

If you really want to go full Darwin, exempt hospitals from having to provide emergency service to the uninsured. If you can't just get treated on demand with no intention of paying, perhaps it will generate more interest in having insurance

Boom! Less demand on emergency rooms and lower health care costs overall

 

[Alpo]

An example of utopia? Sorry, I can't give you that. It doesn't exist. What we have is human nature. Since you similarly can't give us an example of your collectivist utopia, I reject your demand for this evidence entirely.

Since neither of us can provide a utopia, let's drop that argument completely and talk morals. Stealing from one person to give to another is immoral. End of story.



Liberals love the Standard Oil argument. Unfortunately it demonstrates a failure to understand history and market forces. I've destroyed this argument in the past:

Rather un-nuanced and fails to account for the influence of the Texas/Oklahoma finds early in the century. 80% of a market clearly is market control, especially when you consider the geographic segments of that market.

You can take that side of the debate if you will, the Supreme Court ruled differently. As a standard for predatory capitalism, Standard Oil is a wonderful case.

As to utopia, I'm past the age where idealism, mingled with chemicals provided by friends is something I'd have in mind. I'm satisfied that I live in the era that I am supposed to be and nothing I might suggest will have an influence on the direction of the world.

But, I'm not one that goes on a tirade spouting ideals that oppose the morality espoused by the Bible that many hold sacrosanct (not that you are, but some do).

 

[ATM]

...Why should I pay property taxes for some kid that isn't up to par?

Taxation is theft.

You see, of course, where this is headed?

Liberty?

 

[Alpo]

Taxation is theft.

Except when.... (come on, ATM, I know you have the remainder of this sentence memorized).

 

[ATM]

Except when.... (come on, ATM, I know you have the remainder of this sentence memorized).

Wearing a hat and badge?

 

[bwframe]

5 more days...

 

[steveh_131]

Rather un-nuanced and fails to account for the influence of the Texas/Oklahoma finds early in the century. 80% of a market clearly is market control, especially when you consider the geographic segments of that market.

You can take that side of the debate if you will, the Supreme Court ruled differently. As a standard for predatory capitalism, Standard Oil is a wonderful case.

The best sense I can make of your argument(?) is a resounding 'nuh uh'. Like I said, if Standard Oil is predatory capitalism, sign me up for another.

But, I'm not one that goes on a tirade spouting ideals that oppose the morality espoused by the Bible that many hold sacrosanct (not that you are, but some do).

Are you really arguing that the Jesus of the Bible went around preaching that we should force rich people to give to the poor, instead of giving of our own money?

I feel like maybe you missed a few parables, if so.

 

[hoosierdoc]

It seems you've gone off on a tangent to the topic. But, that's OK. Everyone has a bad day now and then.
Why does it need to be replaced? Frankly, I don't care. Get rid of doctors entirely.
We might as well get rid of all the short buses and special ed as well. Why should I pay property taxes for some kid that isn't up to par?
You see, of course, where this is headed?

someone says repeal it and you slam that saying what do you replace it with, and we'll never have a free market. Then I ask you what YOU would replace it with you say it's up to us to replace it, even though we just said repeal, not replace. Then when called on it you call it a tangent and don't answer. OK.

 

[hoosierdoc]

Is that from "Archer"?

what's archer? I hear cool young people use it so I use their terms to fight my aging body.

 

[hoosierdoc]

5 more days...

I have a feeling the administrative rules, pardons, and other things are going to be flying out insanely fast. And he'll be gone before we know about everything that was actually done.

 

[ATM]

Repeal theft and slavery. Do not replace them with anything.

 

[hoosierdoc]

Repeal theft and slavery. Do not replace them with anything.

but I saw a sign today at a protest that said healthcare is a right. why are you against rights?

 

[ATM]

but I saw a sign today at a protest that said healthcare is a right. why are you against rights?

Because taxation and slavery are rights, obviously.

 

[poptab]

Steve argued in favor of the moral, charitable free market economy. I asked him to show me an example of one that existed in history. We are now many posts away from that request and he has not responded, nor has anyone else been successful in demonstrating such a sovereign state (gosh, I feel like ATM!)

A free market can never exist whether through legislation or perfect systems of information and distribution. Not on the scale of economies.

Standard Oil was certainly free to associate and thereby colluded with others to fix markets, prices and was so bold as to demand that railroads credit drawbacks for the oil shipments of others. Beyond that, I fail to see your point.

A historical example is unnecessary when logical deduction will lead you to the answer. Free market incentives guarantee that people will serve thier fellow man. Its not perfect.

A free market is closer than you think and certainly is possible.

Also here is a related story that you might enjoy:
How did Dow Chemical defeat an international monopoly in the 1900s? | Investopedia

 

[hoosierdoc]

Because taxation and slavery are rights, obviously.

now I see the quandary. Hrm. Does the government have rights? Because I used to think that I did, then I was told that exercising my rights hurts other people and that makes me evil and bigoted. now I don't know what to think I wish the government would just figure it out for me.

 

[ATM]

now I see the quandary. Hrm. Does the government have rights? Because I used to think that I did, then I was told that exercising my rights hurts other people and that makes me evil and bigoted. now I don't know what to think I wish the government would just figure it out for me.

Government is force. They have it all figured out, I assure you.

 

[Alpo]

The best sense I can make of your argument(?) is a resounding 'nuh uh'. Like I said, if Standard Oil is predatory capitalism, sign me up for another.

Yes it was. Here is the full text of the decision if you have time. It is always good to speak from documents where possible, don't you think?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/221/1

Are you really arguing that the Jesus of the Bible went around preaching that we should force rich people to give to the poor, instead of giving of our own money?

I feel like maybe you missed a few parables, if so.

One shouldn't be forced to do anything; however, if you think that private charitable contributions have adequately addressed the situation of the poor in the past through voluntary donations, you might need to dig a bit deeper.