OC vs HOA

[jennybird]

Thanks for all the responses. About the HOA covenants… from what I’ve read in them, they are very broad and very powerful. With , if I’m reading it correctly, such wording in it the HOA may take or claim sections of your property for the common good of the community. Has anyone ever seen anything like that?

The thing is, you don’t (from my understanding) get to even view the covenants, until you close on the purchase, and by that time you’re in a room full of people making you sign mortgage papers that they don’t allow you time to read so you really do NOT have much of a choice if you want the house/property.

Wrong wrong WRONG!!! You should have been provided a copy of the covenants prior to even writing an offer on the house! If you weren't, your realtor did you a great injustice!

As for claiming sections of your property, they'd need a damn good reason (not liking your gun isn't good enough). If they ever attempt it, hire an attorney immediately.

In the mean time, go to the HOA meetings. Go to the neighborhood watch meetings. Get involved. Explain to them that covenants are public documents and if it is written that no weapons are allowed on the streets or even in the homes, that criminals will be ALL OVER that neighborhood! Get involved, get involved, get involved. It's the only way unless you're prepared to move.

And one more thing. I don't care if you OC or not. Makes no difference to me. But if you're going up against people that will stonewall you because of your OC then you will have to be willing to compromise a bit in order to get your foot in the door. I suggest that you CC for a while to show them that you're a reasonable man. Then, when you get them softened up about the idea, go back to OC.

 

[hoosiertriangle]

You're definitely correct there are limits, but you'll have to go to court to get them enforced. You can either abide by the contract (even if unfair) and all is well or you can fight the contract and get it found unenforceable (for whatever reason) at the cost of bringing the contract to court.

It is far simpler to avoid a bad contract than trying to break the contract in a court of law after the fact. You may win in court, but you'll still have to pay attorney fees and filing fees.

But there are limits to what you can sign away in a contract..
For example you can not sign a contract saying you will work for $1 / hour...
Well, you can sign it but the employer still has to pay you Min. wage..

And I doubt a HOA could say "no inviting over Blacks" ...

 

[hoosiertriangle]

Good advice, especially with respect to losing a battled (CC for a short time) to win the war (OC as you wish). Also, the covenant's should have been provided prior to your making an offer and signing the agreement. That being said, if your Realtor isn't so hot they may not have cared if you got them and reviewed them, especially if you didn't ask for them.

Wrong wrong WRONG!!! You should have been provided a copy of the covenants prior to even writing an offer on the house! If you weren't, your realtor did you a great injustice!

As for claiming sections of your property, they'd need a damn good reason (not liking your gun isn't good enough). If they ever attempt it, hire an attorney immediately.

In the mean time, go to the HOA meetings. Go to the neighborhood watch meetings. Get involved. Explain to them that covenants are public documents and if it is written that no weapons are allowed on the streets or even in the homes, that criminals will be ALL OVER that neighborhood! Get involved, get involved, get involved. It's the only way unless you're prepared to move.

And one more thing. I don't care if you OC or not. Makes no difference to me. But if you're going up against people that will stonewall you because of your OC then you will have to be willing to compromise a bit in order to get your foot in the door. I suggest that you CC for a while to show them that you're a reasonable man. Then, when you get them softened up about the idea, go back to OC.

 

[citizenvain]

Wrong wrong WRONG!!! You should have been provided a copy of the covenants prior to even writing an offer on the house! If you weren't, your realtor did you a great injustice!

You're right Jenny, my realtor was more interested in the sale I believe than my future comfort on my property. I honestly do NOT recall EVER getting to review the convenants before closing. At the very least, my realtor knowing I have never had experience with an HOA, she should have made an effort to get them for me and sit down with me to review, because even if I reviewed by myself (at the time), I would probably have been confused and still need someone with knowledge's guidance to explain what I was reading.

And one more thing. I don't care if you OC or not. Makes no difference to me. But if you're going up against people that will stonewall you because of your OC then you will have to be willing to compromise a bit in order to get your foot in the door. I suggest that you CC for a while to show them that you're a reasonable man. Then, when you get them softened up about the idea, go back to OC.

I respectfully may have to disagree with the way you worded this, but I see your point. I do not think that CCing shows I'm reasonable, it shows I'm controlled by their whims and viewpoints. I kind of see this situation with OC/CC in my neighborhood to something as a gay couple. How many more special interest groups would be on my side should my situation be that I am gay and this HOA board member LEO told me that he supports gay rights, but that it concerns my neighbors that my partner and I walk down the street holding hands and kissing in public.

That may seemed far fetch and stretch for this, but in my mind it is the same thing. We have rights as responsible gun owners and our choice to OC or CC should not be dictacted by people who do NOT want to see a gun. Change what I just say with gay. and I think you may see my point.

 

[rhino]

Yet another reason to never sign anything you have not read carefully and understand fully.

 

[citizenvain]

Yet another reason to never sign anything you have not read carefully and understand fully.

You are correct and even then, maybe even meet with the people who are in charge of the rules, because only then can you understand the potential of the context of what you are reading. Meaning that, some harmless rule you see on paper you would agree to , could become quite the headache if you get a feel for how the people in charge interpret it and use it to their discretion.

 

[youngda9]

Wow, yet another obsticle out there for the OC-er. Good luck with the HOA.

 

[jennybird]

You're right Jenny, my realtor was more interested in the sale I believe than my future comfort on my property. I honestly do NOT recall EVER getting to review the convenants before closing. At the very least, my realtor knowing I have never had experience with an HOA, she should have made an effort to get them for me and sit down with me to review, because even if I reviewed by myself (at the time), I would probably have been confused and still need someone with knowledge's guidance to explain what I was reading.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of realtors out there like this. Very few really know what they're doing and will look out for your best interest. It's important to find an experienced, honest, well-seasoned agent. Tough, but important. Live and learn I suppose.

I respectfully may have to disagree with the way you worded this, but I see your point. I do not think that CCing shows I'm reasonable, it shows I'm controlled by their whims and viewpoints. I kind of see this situation with OC/CC in my neighborhood to something as a gay couple. How many more special interest groups would be on my side should my situation be that I am gay and this HOA board member LEO told me that he supports gay rights, but that it concerns my neighbors that my partner and I walk down the street holding hands and kissing in public.

That may seemed far fetch and stretch for this, but in my mind it is the same thing. We have rights as responsible gun owners and our choice to OC or CC should not be dictacted by people who do NOT want to see a gun. Change what I just say with gay. and I think you may see my point.

I didn't mean to imply that OC'ing makes you unreasonable. Not at all. I just think that if they see you're willing to bend a little, maybe they will meet you half way. If you don't, they may just dig their heels in and make your life miserable. I don't see it as being "controlled by their whims". If it were, you'd be giving all your guns away and sending a hand-written apology to everyone in your neighborhood. If you dig your heels in and aren't willing to work something out (you signed up for this remember, whether your realtor explained it or not) then the HOA shouldn't be expected to either.

Look at it this way... you would be the proverbial gay couple agreeing not stick your tongues down eachothers throats in front of the rest of the neighborhood (OC'ing), but instead, being a bit more discrete by just holding hands (CC'ing). Then, once the neighborhood begins to accept you and your gun as a happy couple, you can let them see you make out once in a while. Well, you know what I mean.

 

[citizenvain]

Well, you know what I mean.

Dear God NO! I don't know what you mean... what are you trying to say?

But seriously, I understand what you're saying. Diplomacy.

 

[jennybird]

Diplomacy.

EXACTLY!!!

Remember... Softly, softly, catchee monkee.

 

[thompal]

EXACTLY!!!

Remember... Softly, softly, catchee monkee.

Diplomacy didn't work out too well for Chamberlain. I think it was called "appeasement" at the time.

 

[jennybird]

Diplomacy didn't work out too well for Chamberlain. I think it was called "appeasement" at the time.

What's your point. This is an HOA we're talking about, not a phsychotic German nazi dictator.

 

[melensdad]

You're right Jenny, my realtor was more interested in the sale I believe than my future comfort on my property. I honestly do NOT recall EVER getting to review the convenants before closing. At the very least, my realtor knowing I have never had experience with an HOA, she should have made an effort to get them for me and sit down with me to review, because even if I reviewed by myself (at the time), I would probably have been confused and still need someone with knowledge's guidance to explain what I was reading.

Your realtor has NO LEGAL OBLIGATION to 'review' or 'explain' covenants to you.

However, you should have been provided your own copy of the covenants and the bylaws at some point in the purchasing process. At the very least they should have been included in the documents you received at closing. Your HOA should be able to provide you with a set of both the bylaws and the covenants. They covenants are public documents, they transfer with the title of the land. You will also be able to get a copy of those from the county clerks office or some other office that deals with property in your county (probably for a small fee). The bylaws, on the other hand, may not be public record. Those are the operating rules for the HOA and the residents. They should be provided to you by your HOA.

 

[ATM]

Well, you know what I mean.

How did you just make me feel so dirty?

Nevermind. I'll just deal with it.

 

[opus1776]

Does anyone know of a way to strip the convenents and restriction from the title of the property when its transferred??? Just curious....

 

[melensdad]

Does anyone know of a way to strip the convenents and restriction from the title of the property when its transferred??? Just curious....

It is probably not possible within a HOA but it is possible for an HOA is vote to disband itself (under some circumstances). There are many covenants and restrictions that can be imposed on property, and there is NO NEED for those to exist inside a HOA. I owned an industrial property many years ago. It had a covenant on it that dated back to the civil war that allowed for a barge canal to be dug through the property. We could not get the covenant removed, but on the other hand it was clearly not a risk to worry about either.

 

[fg12351]

That sucks about the HOA and the LEO. Are they willing to hear your side of it or are they simply going into panic mode?

I'd pray for a crime spree.

 

[jsx1043]

The concept of the HOA being a private club is true to a degree. They can mandate that properties are maintained in a similar order. The HOA could also pass a covenant restricting guns and be perfectly within their rights to do so, this is so because they are not state actors and thus neither the U.S. nor the Indiana state Constitutions apply to them. Any Constitutional issue comes in when they involve a state actor to enforce the covenant, say a judge. A similar issue came about during the civil rights movement when HOA's were making racial covenants. They were allowed to make them but when they sought enforcement the Constitution would kick in, either through the 5th or 14th amendment, and the covenants would be void for illegality. All in all it would be a hassle if they went that route.

MeltonLaw is right on this, but the best part is that anything they try to "enforce" is civil in nature, not criminal. They can try all they want to take you to court on ANY infraction of their covenant or bylaws, but ultimately, it will be up to the jduge (state actor) to hand down a ruling. This will not happen as the case would be dropped in the screening process - no judge would touch it with a ten foot pole in a civil case.

If you are walking on a street or sidewalk - it is public property (i.e. city street.) You may carry there as you would carry downtown on Meridian street within your legal parameters. The funny part about the whole thing is, is that Mr. LEO HOA guy knows he has no standing and cannot enforce anything, thus the "chat." I am disappointed in my fellow LEO.

The only other consideration, to which melensdad has already repeated, is that you need to check your bylaws and more importantly, is whether there is an attachment of your mortgage, lien, title or deed to the HOA. If there is no attachment (50/50 chance) then they ABSOLUTELY HAVE NO TEETH and cannot enforce a single thing. Remember, they have to be able to hold something over your head to make you do anything. If you just have a neighborhood agreement, they can fine you, write you nasty letters, heck even serve with legal papers to "pay up" - but it means nothing because they have no standing and no legal control over you or your property. HOWEVER - some lease agreements are drafted to where the HOA has partial right to the property based on your occupation of the premises (more like an apartment, townhome, condo, or rental) that include a "behavior" or "compliance" bylaw. These basically allow the HOA or property managers to enforce occupant removal because you didn't abide by their rules.

 

[rambone]

This is an HOA we're talking about, not a phsychotic German nazi dictator.

 

[paddling_man]

How did you just make me feel so dirty?

Nevermind. I'll just deal with it.

And THIS didn't excite you????

EXACTLY!!!

Remember... Softly, softly, catchee monkee.

Good luck with the HOA. Mine seems to have limited power (civil) and, more importantly, limited funds.

Ask yourself, HOA. Do you want to spend you small leftover balance from landscaping, snow removal, and the Fall Block Party to hire an attorney and take me to court??

They seem to usually only have a lien as a tool. Are you selling? Agreed with Melensdad and other - KNOW the covenants.