Ok... The debate continues!

[Leo]

I have seen the .223 do well at 1000 yards just punching holes. Unless you are VERY versed, you will not do it. They do not shoot .223 because it is superior, but because of internal rules and politics within the military. There are many preparations of the rifle AND the ammo. Don't forget, the AMU and Marines have a big budget and lots of technology and time to work with things you do not have. They can choose to overstress a gun and scrap it after every match if they want. (I do not know that they do that, but they can) I have actually shot 7.62 service rifle at 1000 yards. Even with an M-14 you have your hands full and special prep is required, even with 175 gr ammo. I spent a long hot frustrating day in the target pits pulling for guys that thought they could shoot an AR at 1000 yards. Few bullets actually hit the target, and trying to find little pin holes in 36 square freet of target paper is annoying. Not the perfect rifle for long distance if you can avoid it.
I have also made 60 rounds for record plus sighters shouldering a 300 win Mag. That is a pretty abusive cartridge for the shooter, but the 190 gr bullets carry a lot of energy to the target accurately.

 

[Yeah]

Unfortunatly no I dont reload

Go with 308.

 

[oneshotonekill]

I have a 700 PSS and am fairly consistant with it out to 700yds. Haven't shot beyond that cause I don't have the room. All I can tell you is if you can feel even a slight change in the wind you'll have a 12" shift in point of impact. That's with a 168 gr Matchking, the .223 is less than half that.

I love shooting a .308. The best advice I can give you is to tell you no matter what, you cannot skimp on the optics. Spend the money, it is worth it. Target knobs or BDC knobs are a must along with an adjustable objective.

 

[redneckmedic]

I witnessed .223 at 750yds on Bobcat steel this week. No that hard with a bit of practice

 

[smokingman]

I rarely see it mentioned but 270 Winchester is a fine caliber.It started life as a stock Weatherby Vanguard.I changed the stock to a Boyds,put in a Timney trigger,a rock mount,and a Bushnell Trophy DOA scope.I built this with the idea of having a long range deer slayer The 270 win is a flatter shooting better cartridge than a 308 in my opinion.You have everything from a 115 grain to 185 grain round available for them as well.Of course pictures are needed

 

[Hoosier8]

So, If you want to shoot a .223 to 600 yards it can be done and done with good accuracy and precision. You need to be able to read the wind and you need a heavier, match bullet such as a boat tailed 77g or higher grain Sierra. (any good brand, I just use Sierra)

.308 is cheaper than 300 win mag. It will go to 1000yd. People shoot 1000 yd matches at camp perry with 308s. Again, get the right rifle and ammo. HAVING said that, the 300 win mag would probably be a better choice for anything that far, especially if you aren't just punching paper. If you want to really get into LONG range, get a 338 lapua.

The Marines train to 500 yds with the 5.56. Depending if your finances are limited, it would seem that the 308 would be a good choice. I am no expert in much of anything other than watching my pocketbook and fail at that regularly. I would love to practice at 500 yds (like someone else said, I cannot see that far anymore) but there are no ranges around here that I know of that go out that far so it is kind of a moot point for me.

 

[sgreen3]

I can get a new savage bolt .308 for less than 450.00. So I think I may go that rout. Thanks for the info fellas!

 

[kludge]

Shooting .308 from a bench in long stretches wears on me. I have an 11+ pound gun and I'm done after about 30 rounds (meaning it gets painful -- 168gr SMK).

.223 in the same weight gun would be much more pleasant, but then you have to deal with more drop and drift. The .243 Win can do somewhat better

For 1,000 yards you might look into one of the 6.5mm or 7mm cartridges. (.260 Rem, 6.5-284, 7mm-08, .284 Win, .280 Rem), and you might want to get the chamber reamed for the specific bullet you want to use to make sure it will chamber the longer match bullets.

Savage is now chambering rifles in .260 Rem and they have switched back to the 1:9.5" twist in the 7mm-08.

With handloads and bullets 140gr and under the 7mm-08 is knocking on the door of the 7mm Rem Mag. The .284 Win and .280 Rem can get there with a few of the new powders (like RL22)... of course then you're back up to recoil levels equal to or exceeding .308 and .30-06 levels, especially with heavier match bullets.

P.S. You definitely want to handload.

 

[sgreen3]

Shooting .308 from a bench in long stretches wears on me. I have an 11+ pound gun and I'm done after about 30 rounds (meaning it gets painful -- 168gr SMK).

.223 in the same weight gun would be much more pleasant, but then you have to deal with more drop and drift. The .243 Win can do somewhat better

For 1,000 yards you might look into one of the 6.5mm or 7mm cartridges. (.260 Rem, 6.5-284, 7mm-08, .284 Win, .280 Rem), and you might want to get the chamber reamed for the specific bullet you want to use to make sure it will chamber the longer match bullets.

Savage is now chambering rifles in .260 Rem and they have switched back to the 1:9.5" twist in the 7mm-08.

With handloads and bullets 140gr and under the 7mm-08 is knocking on the door of the 7mm Rem Mag. The .284 Win and .280 Rem can get there with a few of the new powders (like RL22)... of course then you're back up to recoil levels equal to or exceeding .308 and .30-06 levels, especially with heavier match bullets.

P.S. You definitely want to handload.

Thats true, deffinatly have to think of recoil. If I go with the .308 it will have a slip on butt pad. They work real well on my mosin an mauser.

Let me ask this question, What would be the next step up from a .223? what would the price point on ammo? and would that round get to 500yrds accuratly without the wind trouble you run into with the .223?

 

[kludge]

I would say the next step up from the .223 is the .243 Win or the .22-250. You might have to get a custom barrel made for heavy match bullets in .22-250 since the "standard" twist is 1:12" and won't stabilize the heavier .224" bullets. With most .243 Win barrels you can stabilize 100gr bullets. Shooting the heavy 6mm bullets (like 110-115gr) you will need a custom barrel... again the standard twist rate of 1:10" or 1:9" isn't going to work and you'll probably need something like 1:7.5".

There are a bunch of 6mm benchrest cartridges in between the .223 and the .243 that will do just fine out to 600 yards... check some of these out...AccurateShooter.com 6mmBR.com -- Best Guide to Precision Shooting and Precision Rifle Accuracy And now you're handloading for sure.

Price of .243 and .22-250 ammo is similar to most other popular centerfire ammo (not cheap). Match ammo can probably be found for .243, but I doubt you find any for .22-250.

For lower recoil on the .308 (when your not shooting long range... maybe up to 200-300 yards) there is a 135gr Sierra Match King.

 

[Yeah]

The next step up from .223" is .243", and 243 Win is a monster cartridge for long range work. The problem with it and everything other than 223 Rem and 308 Win, for people who don't reload, is the availability of suitable factory ammunition.

This isn't just about flatness and wind drift but bullet quality as well. The two cartridges above benefit from being used in military applications and that surplus ammo being available on the civilian market. A lot of it uses well made, consistent, long-for-caliber-high-BC bullets. So factories offer rifles twisted to handle them. So more factories load those kinds of bullets, and so on and so forth. Most other cartridges don't have that advantage. If you want to shoot spectacular 243" bullets like the 105 AMax you not only need to handload them yourself but because most factory barrels aren't twisted fast enough to stabilize them, you are almost forced to go to a custom.

This is exactly why 22-250 Rem doesn't get a lot of LR love. Twist one to shoot a 75 AMax and you have another monster on your hands, but the factories don't get them even close.

 

[c3d4b2]

+1

For 1,000 yards you might look into one of the 6.5mm or 7mm cartridges. (.260 Rem, 6.5-284, 7mm-08, .284 Win, .280 Rem), and you might want to get the chamber reamed for the specific bullet you want to use to make sure it will chamber the longer match bullets.

The accuracy life for the .243 and 6.5-284 are on the low side. The 6.5-284 barrels that I am aware of have lasted in the 1200 to 1500 round area (I have read claims as low as 800 and as high as 1600). My current barrel has aprox 750 rounds through it and the throat is showing signs of erosion.

If you are serious about competing at 1000 yards the recoil and ballistics of the 6.5-284 is hard to beat. Unfortunately the cost of the better ballistics is shorter barrel life. There have been some new bullets come out for the 7mm that may make the 284 more competitive, but I have not seen much information.

If you want to shoot causally then the 308 will work at 1000 yards and will be easier on the pocket. If you go the 308 route it would be good to have a twist rate that will handle the 175 gr bullets.

Here is a link to an article comparing different calibers on Brian Litz's site that you may find interesting.

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/30cal_fullVersion.pdf

Brian Home page is Home

 

[sgreen3]

Thanks fellas all great info. Looks like ive still got some deciding to do. But it looks like the .308 is going to be the way to go. considering ammo availability, cost of shooting an such. have to deal with some recoil but im not looking to compete. but since ill prolly start out to 500yrds first the .308 can handle that, an can go further as skill progresses. So that may be the way to go.

 

[sgreen3]

+1



The accuracy life for the .243 and 6.5-284 are on the low side. The 6.5-284 barrels that I am aware of have lasted in the 1200 to 1500 round area (I have read claims as low as 800 and as high as 1600). My current barrel has aprox 750 rounds through it and the throat is showing signs of erosion.

If you are serious about competing at 1000 yards the recoil and ballistics of the 6.5-284 is hard to beat. Unfortunately the cost of the better ballistics is shorter barrel life. There have been some new bullets come out for the 7mm that may make the 284 more competitive, but I have not seen much information.

If you want to shoot causally then the 308 will work at 1000 yards and will be easier on the pocket. If you go the 308 route it would be good to have a twist rate that will handle the 175 gr bullets.

Here is a link to an article comparing different calibers on Brian Litz's site that you may find interesting.

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/30cal_fullVersion.pdf

Brian Home page is Home

What twist rate should I be looking for?

 

[kludge]

+1

The accuracy life for the .243 and 6.5-284 are on the low side. The 6.5-284 barrels that I am aware of have lasted in the 1200 to 1500 round area (I have read claims as low as 800 and as high as 1600). My current barrel has aprox 750 rounds through it and the throat is showing signs of erosion.

+1. I was going to mention that, but my post was long enough already.

 

[kludge]

What twist rate should I be looking for?

The standard 1:10" twist for the .308 should be fine up to maybe 190gr... depending on bullet construction.

There's a "Palma" twist rate of 1:12" that is used for light match bullets like the 135gr SMK I mentioned.

 

[sgreen3]

The standard 1:10" twist for the .308 should be fine up to maybe 190gr... depending on bullet construction.

There's a "Palma" twist rate of 1:12" that is used for light match bullets like the 135gr SMK I mentioned.

The savage rifle im lookin at does have a 1:10" twist. Will that be ok for most ammo? Is there any ammo I should avoid shootin with this twist rate?

 

[hotfarmboy1]

Personally I'd go 30-06, especially if you are going to reload in the future. If you start to reload in the future the loading flexibility of the 30-06 is more flexible than the .308 could ever be. It can be loaded down to velocities and pressures under most .308 loads, and all the way up to just short of .300 win mag. Its what I'm starting a build with right now. If not you could go with the .223 just to work on the skills and work your way up to the more powerful rifle.

 

[kludge]

The savage rifle im lookin at does have a 1:10" twist. Will that be ok for most ammo? Is there any ammo I should avoid shootin with this twist rate?

"Most" commercial ammo for .308 is between 150gr and 168gr, so you'll be fine. 1:10" will easily work for 175gr SMK and should work for 190gr SMK, possibly even 200gr SMK. At the high end (like 200gr) it can depend on how long your barrel is and how fast you push the bullets. A 1:12" twist will work for most bullets up to around 150gr.

 

[Leo]

c3d brought up a good point on Barrel Life. If you are building a 6.5 X 284, or having one built, there is a trick I used. When you buy a barrel blank, have the 'smith turn the barrel taper so that the full diameter back by the reciever is two inches too long. You will have to open the stock up, but that is the easy/cheap part. AT about 800-900 rounds or when you start throwing off call fliers, the 1st inch of the rifling will look bad when you look through a bore scope. Unscrew the barrel and have the 'smith cut of a couple inches, rethread and rechamber. It is cheaper this time because you do not have to pay him for machining the taper or drilling and tapping for the front sight mount. Plus you do not have to buy a barrel blank so that is saving $300-400 for a top grade barrel. I was able to squeeze about 2000 rounds out of my 6.5 X 284 barrels.
I also built a 7mm express (280 REM) long range match class rifle. It was much easier on the barrel. It went almost 2500 rounds without a barrel set back proceedure. Compaired to the wind reading needed for a .308, the 6.5 X 284 was like cheating, it is so much slicker through the air.