***OUT OF STATE*** Best .223 for deer hunting

[avboiler11]

Having actually shot a deer with a Mk262 clone load, I'd have no qualms about putting a 77gr match bullet at typical 16-18" 5.56 muzzle velocities into the vitals of a midwestern beanfield buck at 200 yards.

Others may not be so inclined, and that's fine.

I also know that there's a substantial difference in terminal effects between Hague-complaint match bullets and modern expanding bullets like the 60gr Partition, 62gr Fusion, 64gr BSB, 65gr Gameking, and *certainly* the 55/62gr Barnes TSX.

 

[patience0830]

Cranial works, but you better be good, with a good rifle, and know how deer behave well enough to predict when they'll hold still long enough to accept a bit of copper in the brain. I am the same as avboiler...it's strictly a short range deal 50-75 yards and under. I can hit the target further, but the elapsed time--from both my reaction, and for the bullet travel--means too much risk of the deer catching my 'perfect' shot in the jaw. A tenth of a second or two is an eternity for movement of a kill zone only 3 inches wide, and even with the FAST portions of the cartridges now legal, that's what you're looking at at 150-200 yards for bullet travel. Add in 2/10ths for reaction time for even the 20 year olds among us...



I didn't insult your intelligence. What I had a problem with is your ability to communicate what you meant (or...what I think you meant).

You SAID "... .224 caliber rifles...". That MEANS (in plain English) ANYthing with a .224 caliber bullet. That can mean a .22 WMR doing 2,000 fps through (at least) a .22-243 Middlestead clocking 5,000+ fps. Big difference.

So if I may ask, how many deer have you shot with a .223, and how did it go?

Look, I'm not challenging the idea that a .223 Remington can kill a deer. Sure it can. But my opinion after many, many deer shot with larger weapons--and more that "a little" experience on the 5.56x45mm NATO--is that it isn't enough.

Nobody in my family has lost a deer to a firearm in my recollection; that's a good bit over 2 decades of shooting them for me, probably 4 decades on the upper end...do you want to know why?

The WHY is because we use pretty heavy weapons for the job, and because we don't take shots we can't hit. We blow really big holes in really bad spots to have extra ventilation, and it ALWAYS works. Not maybe. Not "oh, it should be good enough"... EVERY time a really big hole.

Sure, they're just little ders, and they're about the same weight as us, and since the AR works so well on people (it doesn't always, by the by...) then it should work on deer, right?



right....?


No.


Respectfully disagreeing,
-Nate

Opinions are like armpits. I know what has worked for me. Deer are like any other critter. You stop the pump or remove the oxygen or shut off the electricity they die. Quickly. Use a big gun if it makes you happy. Don't try to dictate my choices based on your successes or failures. Or your prejudices or competence level. Live inside your limits. I'll choose my own. Inside the laws pertaining taking game in whatever state I happen to be in, of course.
I would not feel undergunned in Texas brush country with an AR and an appropriate bullet hunting over bait. Or low crawling along the crest of a ridge to slip inside 100 yds on an Indiana white tail with a 20ga single shot in Indiana. The Indian is more the limit than the arrow in most cases.

 

[natdscott]

Patience, you need some thicker skin.

I never told you what to do or not to do. All of my discussion points are entirely factual as far as I know them. No emotion has been introduced except by you. Twice.

-Nate

 

[patience0830]

Patience, you need some thicker skin.

I never told you what to do or not to do. All of my discussion points are entirely factual as far as I know them. No emotion has been introduced except by you. Twice.

-Nate

Sorry Nate. I'm not the least bit emotional about this. Just calling it like I see it. Hunters eat their own way too often over their own opinion of whats right or wrong. I'm suggesting we use what works for us and not shoot the other guy because he chooses to do it his own way. You get to decide what's right for you. Not what is right for me. This is not an issue of morality. Question was if .223 was enough for deer. It definitely is in skilled enough hands.

 

[T.Lex]

First of all, thank you all for your input on this. I've repped until my rep ran dry.

Let us also remember that typing/text/written word is an imperfect medium. All of you are likely much better shots than I am, but when it comes to expressing ourselves in this format, there are limitations. What can be said briefly, but kindly, comes across much differently when written.

Tell you what. I'll concede something. In elite hands that can hit the body of the heart every shot, and with hot loads using heavy bullets, maybe .223 is a 100 yard cartridge At that range, they can be relied upon--via their retained speed--to perform as I illustrated above, and they'd still punch through a rib okay. That, or ONLY on CNS shots, but as we've said, taking a cranial shot outside 100 yards is a dicey proposition given the small target (relative to human anatomy) and the unpredictability of movements.

The Texas area that we hunt has some angles that extend to about 200 yds. Some. And, frankly, we've rarely seen game out that far. Going from memory, I don't think any of the harvest we've accomplished have been more than 120 yds, and most inside 100. And that's with mostly bolt guns. This was the first AR kill, which is part of what drove me to post the question.

For me, I'm going to try some of the mentioned rounds at the range and see what my ARs shoot well. I will probably take a box of the best on the next trip down there.

However, I've also decided to look around (probably after the first of the year) for a good .308 bolt. Given the kind of hunting we do, I think it makes sense to use the AR for stalking, where a 100 yd shot is doubtful, and the bolt gun for the stand. Different tools for different situations.

And, I will commit to improving my own skills behind the trigger, which I believe was the primary failure.

 

[Hookeye]

Broadheads create a wound causing severe blood loss, which is what causes a game animal to expire...correct?

An expanding bullet that penetrates the heart/lungs does pretty much the exact same thing.

Arrows with field points and FMJs are similar in performance...

Broadhead wounds are fairly large, with minimal shock...........so blood vessels/tissues freely lose the red stuff.
You get a primary wound channel, no secondary. Fast as some bow manufacturer's claim, still no hydrostatic shock
A proper broadhead arrow blows through.
Field points are to minimize target damage.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/killing_power_bullet_arrow.htm

 

[SMiller]

.62 grain Speer Gold Dots and no issues. I prefer the 30 round mag capacity for hog hunting.

Great human, house, critter, glass round, M4 and these rounds do it all.

 

[King31]

If you enjoy the AR platform maybe look into a 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. Both shoot larger grain bullets which would definitely help. I am currently building a Grendel as I was very intrigued when I first came across the caliber.

 

[T.Lex]

Thanks, all, for the help.

I spent some time looking at ammo at Gander Mountain and Dicks. Will try Cabelas, too, but didn't have much luck. Any local place a good value for the hunting rounds?

 

[Hookeye]

I ran 100gr WW soft point in .243 win and double lunged my deer.
Was not impressed.
Def need to try a diff bullet next yr.
Usable, worked..........but not as good as I would have liked.
Less than ideal I'd call it.

Less than ideal in a .223 might be a bit more annoying.
(surfs Gunbroker for 760/7600 in .300 savage or .35 rem)

 

[avboiler11]

Cabelas should stock the Federal Fusion 62gr and either a Nosler or SSA version of the 64gr BSB.

...at least the Louisville Cabelas does.

 

[T.Lex]

Seems like avboiler pretty much wrapped this up. To me however, it sounds like a great excuse to buy a featherweight .308 boltgun!

Revisiting this topic, I've narrowed down my interest in an entry-level .308 bolt gun to the Mossberg Patriot or Remington 783. Frankly, leaning toward the Remmy for a variety of reasons - weight not being one of them.

With the kind of hunting we do, it is unlikely that I'll be humping the .308 bolt more than a quarter mile. Maybe not even that.

I plan on getting .223 hunting rounds for stalking with the AR for longer walkabouts and through foliage that can get quite dense in places.

Thanks for the advice in this thread!

 

[Disposable84]

I would hesitate with .223 or any 20cal round for brush. But that's me. Heavier the round the less deflection from branches and sticks. 30-30 or 45-70 Make wonderful brush guns.

If staying on the AR platform. you may consider buying a 300 black out upper and barrel that would be all you need to convert your AR to 300 black out and at that point you will have a little more weight and power inside 150 yards. I am sure someone will respond with some ballistics charts. lol

308/30-06/300/7mm/270 are awesome rounds and I don't think you can go wrong either way for deer. (I know there are more rounds for deer but those are very common)

I personally am getting saved up for a 300winmag. I am planning a trip in a couple years to hunt Elk and possibly black bear. But it would also be used for deer as I will probably shoot that rifle a lot before making the jump to big game.

Savage makes some very nice and low priced hunting rifles.

Just my thoughts at 8:50pm tonight.. next thread...

 

[two70]

Revisiting this topic, I've narrowed down my interest in an entry-level .308 bolt gun to the Mossberg Patriot or Remington 783. Frankly, leaning toward the Remmy for a variety of reasons - weight not being one of them.

With the kind of hunting we do, it is unlikely that I'll be humping the .308 bolt more than a quarter mile. Maybe not even that.

I plan on getting .223 hunting rounds for stalking with the AR for longer walkabouts and through foliage that can get quite dense in places.

Thanks for the advice in this thread!

I haven't seen you mention what part of Texas you are hunting but by process of elimination it's probably either the Piney Woods or more likely the Hill Country neither of which tend to have big bodied deer even by Texas standards so the .223 with good controlled expansion bullets and good shot placement would be sufficient. However, any excuse to buy a new gun is a good excuse. The Mossberg will likely have a somewhat better stock than the 783 but which to choose probably comes down to how well you like the Savage style tabbed trigger of the Patriot vs. the traditional trigger of the 783.

 

[T.Lex]

I haven't seen you mention what part of Texas you are hunting but by process of elimination it's probably either the Piney Woods or more likely the Hill Country neither of which tend to have big bodied deer even by Texas standards so the .223 with good controlled expansion bullets and good shot placement would be sufficient. However, any excuse to buy a new gun is a good excuse. The Mossberg will likely have a somewhat better stock than the 783 but which to choose probably comes down to how well you like the Savage style tabbed trigger of the Patriot vs. the traditional trigger of the 783.

Ah right - the ranch is west of Dallas. I guess it would be Piney Woods, but not quite THAT far west (as I understand the reference). North of Tyler. And yeah, the deer we got weren't "big."

Opted for the Remington, basically because a really good, time-limited deal was available. Also a better chance of accessories being available for it (larger capacity mags, different stocks) because of the Remington name. The 783 is a couple pounds heavier, but I don't think it'll matter for our purposes.

I think the right .223 will suffice with the appropriate round. At least, that'll be the experiment next year. Will probably use a spring hog trip to break in the .308.

 

[two70]

Ah right - the ranch is west of Dallas. I guess it would be Piney Woods, but not quite THAT far west (as I understand the reference). North of Tyler. And yeah, the deer we got weren't "big."

Opted for the Remington, basically because a really good, time-limited deal was available. Also a better chance of accessories being available for it (larger capacity mags, different stocks) because of the Remington name. The 783 is a couple pounds heavier, but I don't think it'll matter for our purposes.

I think the right .223 will suffice with the appropriate round. At least, that'll be the experiment next year. Will probably use a spring hog trip to break in the .308.

Did you mean east of Dallas, since Tyler is east of Dallas? I believe that is still far enough east to be considered in the Piney Woods region and while small by Midwest standards, I believe the deer are still slightly bigger there than in the Hill Country. I've hunted hogs before about 25 miles east of there and I'm not very surprised you saw more hogs than deer. Good luck!

 

[T.Lex]

Did you mean east of Dallas, since Tyler is east of Dallas? I believe that is still far enough east to be considered in the Piney Woods region and while small by Midwest standards, I believe the deer are still slightly bigger there than in the Hill Country. I've hunted hogs before about 25 miles east of there and I'm not very surprised you saw more hogs than deer. Good luck!

BAH!

Yeah - East of Dallas. Was looking at the map thinking "west to Dallas" and it got all mucked up in my head.

The funny thing is, we've actually seen more deer than hogs the last couple times out. Frustrating as hell in the spring.

The property has gotten really flooded (part of it is basically wetlands) the last few years, so the hog populations have gone up and down dramatically, depending on which direction they were floating over the high fences.

 

[two70]

BAH!

Yeah - East of Dallas. Was looking at the map thinking "west to Dallas" and it got all mucked up in my head.

The funny thing is, we've actually seen more deer than hogs the last couple times out. Frustrating as hell in the spring.

The property has gotten really flooded (part of it is basically wetlands) the last few years, so the hog populations have gone up and down dramatically, depending on which direction they were floating over the high fences.

When I hunted a sizable public property farther east, the hogs were highly nomadic. I would cover a lot of ground and would see a group of 60+ pigs one day, absolutely nothing the next day, followed by a group of 30+ the third day, then nothing, and so on. I typically saw only larger groups and it was always feast or famine. The armadillos were very consistent though...... every time the sun came out they were everywhere!

 

[roscott]

Seems like avboiler pretty much wrapped this up. To me however, it sounds like a great excuse to buy a featherweight .308 boltgun!

Opted for the Remington, basically because a really good, time-limited deal was available. Also a better chance of accessories being available for it (larger capacity mags, different stocks) because of the Remington name. The 783 is a couple pounds heavier, but I don't think it'll matter for our purposes.

I think the right .223 will suffice with the appropriate round. At least, that'll be the experiment next year. Will probably use a spring hog trip to break in the .308.

Victory.

Seriously though, I think you'll love the .308. I've found it to be a really versatile rifle.

 

[T.Lex]

haha

Yeah, picked it up on Saturday and still getting familiar with it. With a 4-16x50 scope, I think it'll be pretty slick.

No need to figure out how to squeeze in a spring hunting trip to Texas.