Out of state handguns at range

[singlestacksig]

Yup, I'm familiar with that. Where does it specifically say you need a License to have a gun at a range? I simply don't see that.

Now I realize that an Indiana resident cannot legally transport a gun TO the range without a license, but an out of state party should be covered by the safe journey provisions of federal law.

But as for having a gun AT the range, I see no language that requires a permit to have the gun AT the range.

unless you own and operate the range , you need the permit.
I think Fed law only applies if you are traveling through a state...

 

[Scutter01]

Yes, I see that. It is very clear. Federal law allowing transporting guns from one legal place to another legal place across state lines would trump our state laws. Specifically it was asked about OUT OF STATE residents bringing guns to Indiana ranges. Would not the safe journey provisions apply to them and supersede Indiana law?

The federal law requires that you are able to legally posses (or carry) at both your start and your destination. In this case, you are not able to legally carry at your destination, therefore the statute doesn't apply.

 

[melensdad]

I think Fed law only applies if you are traveling through a state...

Federal law does not only permit you to travel through a state, it also covers you when you travel to a location in a state. I used to travel (via airlines) with guns all the time. Typically flying out of Chicago's O'Hare to destinations all over the southern USA. Once I landed inside another state I had to transport the gun to a destination within that state. The location was a legal destination. The laws stated that gun had to be legal at the destination point. If the destination point is a gun range and the gun conforms with state laws in the destination state then the gun is legal. Transporting it to the range is covered by the safe journey provisions because the gun was legal where it started (in my case Indiana) it was illegal in Chicago, and perhaps other points along the journey but protected by the federal laws, and was legal at the destination point where I stopped.

 

[IUGradStudent]

Federal law does not only permit you to travel through a state, it also covers you when you travel to a location in a state. I used to travel (via airlines) with guns all the time. Typically flying out of Chicago's O'Hare to destinations all over the southern USA. Once I landed inside another state I had to transport the gun to a destination within that state. The location was a legal destination. The laws stated that gun had to be legal at the destination point. If the destination point is a gun range and the gun conforms with state laws in the destination state then the gun is legal. Transporting it to the range is covered by the safe journey provisions because the gun was legal where it started (in my case Indiana) it was illegal in Chicago, and perhaps other points along the journey but protected by the federal laws, and was legal at the destination point where I stopped.

But, Scutter's saying that there's no legal destination in the case of the Illinois resident coming over to shoot at a range. They cannot legally possess the firearm at the range because a) they do not have a license to carry from IN or any other state, and b) they are not covered by any exception (being in their residence or fixed place of business, etc). There's no legal "final destination" for them in this case so the fed law won't protect them. That's what I think Scutter's saying and it looks right to me. Your travel to the south was different because your final destination was a place where you could legally possess the gun.

 

[melensdad]

The federal law requires that you are able to legally posses (or carry) at both your start and your destination. In this case, you are not able to legally carry at your destination, therefore the statute doesn't apply.

Show me where I need a license to HAVE the gun at the range if I am an out of state resident.

 

[Scutter01]

Transporting it to the range is covered by the safe journey provisions because the gun was legal where it started (in my case Indiana) it was illegal in Chicago, and perhaps other points along the journey but protected by the federal laws, and was legal at the destination point where I stopped.

Exactly. In this case, the destination is not legal without a permit that Indiana recognizes. Peaceable Journey allows you to transport through areas where it would normally be illegal to posses.

 

[Scutter01]

Show me where I need a license to HAVE the gun at the range if I am an out of state resident.

We just quoted you the statute like three times. The law is clear. It makes no distinction as to your residency.

 

[IUGradStudent]

IC 35-47-2-1
Carrying a handgun without a license or by person convicted of domestic battery
Sec. 1. (a) Except as provided in subsection (b) and section 2 of this chapter, a person shall not carry a handgun in any vehicle or on or about the person's body, except in the person's dwelling, on the person's property or fixed place of business, without a license issued under this chapter being in the person's possession.

Is the visitor a person? Check.
Are they carrying a handgun on their body? Check.
Are they in their dwelling, property, or fixed place of business? Nope.

Then they need to either have a license or find themselves on this list somewhere:

IC 35-47-2-2
Excepted persons
Sec. 2. Section 1 of this chapter does not apply to:
(1) marshals;
(2) sheriffs;
(3) the commissioner of the department of correction or persons authorized by him in writing to carry firearms;
(4) judicial officers;
(5) law enforcement officers;
(6) members of the armed forces of the United States or of the national guard or organized reserves while they are on duty;
(7) regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States or from this state who are at or are going to or from their place of assembly or target practice;
(8) employees of the United States duly authorized to carry handguns;
(9) employees of express companies when engaged in company business;
(10) any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms or the agent or representative of any such person having in his possession, using, or carrying a handgun in the usual or ordinary course of that business; or
(11) any person while carrying a handgun unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his dwelling or fixed place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his dwelling or fixed place of business, or in moving from one dwelling or business to another.

 

[ATM]

Show me where I need a license to HAVE the gun at the range if I am an out of state resident.

Without a license, one clearly needs to show why they are excepted from the law.

 

[Coach]

You guys have been very clear about it being illegal to have the gun at a range in Indiana without a permit. Would a law enforcement official have probable cause to stroll onto the range and notice the license plates of some out of state folks and then check for permits? For example to see if the folks from Illnois have an Florida or Utah permit.

 

[Scutter01]

You guys have been very clear about it being illegal to have the gun at a range in Indiana without a permit. Would a law enforcement official have probable cause to stroll onto the range and notice the license plates of some out of state folks and then check for permits? For example to see if the folks from Illnois have an Florida or Utah permit.

I don't know about PC. I've heard stories of it happening, but nothing I can authenticate.

 

[melensdad]

Exactly. In this case, the destination is not legal without a permit that Indiana recognizes. Peaceable Journey allows you to transport through areas where it would normally be illegal to posses.

Wrong. The gun is legally owned. The gun at the destination is legal. The destination is a 'constant' and does not change with the mode or method of transport. Guns are legal at shooting ranges. Period. No debate on that point. Therefore the gun may be legally possessed at that point.

So that means we now have to discuss how to get it to the range. If you are a Hoosier the law is very clear, you must have a permit. If you are out of state resident shooting at an Indiana range, then the peaceable journey federal provisions TRUMP the Indiana law and allow a person to transport a legal gun from a place of origin to a destination so long as the gun is legal at the origin and the destination.

We just quoted you the statute like three times. The law is clear. It makes no distinction as to your residency.

Correct. It affects all people who are not covered under a peaceable journey clause. That means it covers all Hoosiers. It also means it covers all people illegally carrying or transporting, etc. It would, however, be trumped by federal statutes as noted above.

Without a license, one clearly needs to show why they are excepted from the law.

A valid out of state drivers license would do that along with an explanation of the point of origin and destination.

 

[Soundslikejosh]

If I understand the disagreement between Melensdad and Scutter, its seems that the difference is in the interpretation of HAVE and CARRY. Does the code define "carry"? If someone came up to you at the range and asked if you were carrying, would you say yes? I wouldn't. I would say I was shooting. Possession and carrying are different things perhaps?

Melensdad suggests that possession at a range does not require a permit.
Scutter suggests that possession of a gun at a range is equal to carrying, and thus a license is required.

I do not mean to put words in anyone's mouth, so please correct me if I misunderstood.

 

[melensdad]

If I understand the disagreement between Melensdad and Scutter, its seems that the difference is in the interpretation of HAVE and CARRY. Does the code define "carry"? If someone came up to you at the range and asked if you were carrying, would you say yes? I wouldn't. I would say I was shooting. Possession and carrying are different things perhaps?

Melensdad suggests that possession at a range does not require a permit.
Scutter suggests that possession of a gun at a range is equal to carrying, and thus a license is required.

I do not mean to put words in anyone's mouth, so please correct me if I misunderstood.

I would say you have interpreted my words correctly. At the range an out of state shooter would 'possess' the firearm. The gun would have been transported from the foreign state into Indiana with the shooting range as the destination in a secured bag/box/case and covered under federal laws that allow the interstate transport of a firearm to a legal destination. As firearms are permitted at the range, the destination is a valid point and the gun is legal at that point.

 

[singlestacksig]

Wrong. The gun is legally owned. The gun at the destination is legal. The destination is a 'constant' and does not change with the mode or method of transport. Guns are legal at shooting ranges. Period. No debate on that point. Therefore the gun may be legally possessed at that point.
..
Correct. It affects all people who are not covered under a peaceable journey clause. That means it covers all Hoosiers. It also means it covers all people illegally carrying or transporting, etc. It would, however, be trumped by federal statutes as noted above.


A valid out of state drivers license would do that along with an explanation of the point of origin and destination.

Where do you get any idea that a handgun with out a permit is legal at a range ??
State law does not say that..
and yes if you are out shooting a LEO could stroll up and check your permits & guns..
IF it is not next to your residence you could be in trouble..

 

[Scutter01]

The statute says "on or about your person". It says nothing about "having" or "carrying". It doesn't matter if the gun is legally owned or not (well, it *does*, but that's not what we're discussing). If it's "on or about your person" and you are in a physical location that requires you to have a license, then you are not legal unless you are licensed.

 

[ATM]

Guns are legal at shooting ranges. Period. No debate on that point. Therefore the gun may be legally possessed at that point.

Guns are legal at Wal-Mart. Period. No debate on that point. Therefore the gun may be legally possessed at that point.

So an out of state resident may transport without license to an Indiana Wal-Mart, carry there, and then return to his home under peaceable journey protection?

So as long as the destination is not a school, Fed building, etc. everyone from out of state can go anywhere else and back?

Sure doesn't sound like that holds water

 

[singlestacksig]

Guns are legal at Wal-Mart. Period. No debate on that point. Therefore the gun may be legally possessed at that point.

So an out of state resident may transport without license to an Indiana Wal-Mart, carry there, and then return to his home under peaceable journey protection?

So as long as the destination is not a school, Fed building, etc. everyone from out of state can go anywhere else and back?

Sure doesn't sound like that holds water

but without a LTCH your gun @ walmart is not legal, unless you own the store..

 

[Joe Williams]

Yup, I'm familiar with that. Where does it specifically say you need a License to have a gun at a range? I simply don't see that.

Now I realize that an Indiana resident cannot legally transport a gun TO the range without a license, but an out of state party should be covered by the safe journey provisions of federal law.

But as for having a gun AT the range, I see no language that requires a permit to have the gun AT the range.

Nor do I. Still being relatively new here, and awaiting my LTCH, it seems to me I would be perfectly legal to have my friend, who has his LTCH, transport my handgun to the range for me.

Edit: Never mind... seems to me the "on or about your person" language is quite clear. Can't shoot it without a permit.

Now... I notice an exception for going from one residence to another. Nothing says it has to be MY residence. Would I then be legal to have my friend transport our handguns to his house and practice there?

 

[ATM]

but without a LTCH your gun @ walmart is not legal, unless you own the store..

Oh, I agree. Just trying to use the same logic presented at other venues.