P320 Recall? Uhoh

[in625shooter]

I find it disturbing that in625 knows me so well.

We have probably just been around similar co workers. LOL

 

[BE Mike]

I don't post based on "the police rumor mill" but am lucky to have met and corroborated with people inside the gun manufacturing and testing realms. There is a lot of data that never gets made public, due to NDAs, due to agencies not wanting to hurt relationships with manufacturers, due to consultants not talking out of school and not getting another consulting gig, and due to people just not being interested in shouting to the world what's going on. This is not unique to the firearms industry. When I worked in IT, we had actuarial data for failure rates of various computers and components. The public had no idea what the (high) failure rate of a Toshiba 56k modems was (yes, it's been a little while) but the warranty companies sure did. And that information was something used in house or was sold, not something freely given to everyone to make an educated computer purchase decision on. If you didn't, well, you relied on the public domain. The quality of that sort of data vs data gathered by some "Consumer Reports" model of buying a few and testing them yourself, or relying on free information, should seem pretty obvious.

Knowing what I know, if I wanted a P320 I'd buy one. The risk is miniscule but does exist. I would simply treat it like a free floating firing pin weapon. I wouldn't store it loaded on a shelf in an in-wall unit above shoulder level, for example, but would have no issue storing a Glock the same way.

Thanks, but I'm still not making a decision until all the facts are in. Not being an engineer or pistolsmith, I must rely on other experts. How does your "inside" information about the P 320 jibe with the articles that claim there was no problem to begin with? I am very skeptical of a claim, such as that of the Dallas P.D. in the face of all the tests that were performed by the military and the outside experts that were employed in the testing.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Thanks, but I'm still not making a decision until all the facts are in. Not being an engineer or pistolsmith, I must rely on other experts. How does your "inside" information about the P 320 jibe with the articles that claim there was no problem to begin with? I am very skeptical of a claim, such as that of the Dallas P.D. in the face of all the tests that were performed by the military and the outside experts that were employed in the testing.

Believe whoever you like. If you think everything eventually hits the public domain, keep waiting for all the facts to be in.

Just a question, though, how many internal modifications are there on a P320 rolling off the line today vs the first one? If there was no problem to begin with, probably same-same, right?

Sig's announcment is interesting:

There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. commercial market, with hundreds of thousands of guns delivered to date.

Sort of an odd qualifier "in the U.S. commercial market". If there are zero indicidents period, why not say there are zero incidents? Almost like it would be a lie if you didn't have the qualifier. Makes you wonder if they are aware of an incident(s) in the .le/.mil market.

All SIG SAUER pistols incorporate effective mechanical safeties to ensure they only fire when the trigger is pressed. However, like any mechanical device, exposure to acute conditions (e.g. shock, vibration, heavy or repeated drops) may have a negative effect on these safety mechanisms and cause them to not work as designed. This language is common to owner’s manuals of major handgun manufacturers.

Hmmm. Wait. Heavy or repeated drops could cause the safeties not to work? Like, maybe falls from greater heights than testing protocols call for? It's almost like Sig realizes that such a thing could happen. Oddly enough, that "jibes" with my "inside" information. Go figure.

 

[BE Mike]

Believe whoever you like. If you think everything eventually hits the public domain, keep waiting for all the facts to be in.

Just a question, though, how many internal modifications are there on a P320 rolling off the line today vs the first one? If there was no problem to begin with, probably same-same, right?

Sig's announcment is interesting:



Sort of an odd qualifier "in the U.S. commercial market". If there are zero indicidents period, why not say there are zero incidents? Almost like it would be a lie if you didn't have the qualifier. Makes you wonder if they are aware of an incident(s) in the .le/.mil market.



Hmmm. Wait. Heavy or repeated drops could cause the safeties not to work? Like, maybe falls from greater heights than testing protocols call for? It's almost like Sig realizes that such a thing could happen. Oddly enough, that "jibes" with my "inside" information. Go figure.

You may have a point, that the current protocols maybe aren't valid, but that is what they are and I don't see any other groups, companies, etc. challenging their validity. I doubt if there are significant numbers of Sig P 320's outside of the commercial market. The 101st Airborne Division is just now receiving some, therefore I think the statement about the commercial market is specific. As to the second question you have, well anything mechanical can fail after being subject to extreme abuse. I'm not defending the pistols. There definitely could be problems, just as there were with 1911's and 1911a1's. I just think that there is little evidence to back up a question of design, function or safety at this point. The overwhelming evidence (military tests, etc.) is against it. Most everything else at this point is pure conjecture.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You may have a point, that the current protocols maybe aren't valid...

Nope, never said that. They are like car crash tests. Did you know there's no rear crash testing during those "this car gets 4 star safety rating" tests? However, it's satisfactory for the vast majority of users in the vast majority of circumstances. The testing is valid, but incomplete.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The testing is valid, but incomplete.

This is strictly speculation on my part, but I wonder if the trigger is getting enough momentum to press itself when subjected to the harder falls and at the correct angle.

[video=youtube;ch7si_VQsGA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7si_VQsGA[/video]

 

[BE Mike]

Nope, never said that. They are like car crash tests. Did you know there's no rear crash testing during those "this car gets 4 star safety rating" tests? However, it's satisfactory for the vast majority of users in the vast majority of circumstances. The testing is valid, but incomplete.

Since you made statements about not storing a loaded P320 above shoulder height and other comments, it appeared to me that you thought the tests weren't valid. I see now that you insinuate the tests aren't complete. For some, no matter the extent of testing, it wouldn't be enough. The definition of completeness is subject to every individual's idea. At some point a consensus must be agreed upon. The preponderance of evidence regarding the safety of Sig P320's is on the side of the manufacturer. We'll see what happens.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Since you made statements about not storing a loaded P320 above shoulder height and other comments, it appeared to me that you thought the tests weren't valid. I see now that you insinuate the tests aren't complete. For some, no matter the extent of testing, it wouldn't be enough. The definition of completeness is subject to every individual's idea. At some point a consensus must be agreed upon. The preponderance of evidence regarding the safety of Sig P320's is on the side of the manufacturer. We'll see what happens.

I didn't insinuate, I stated.

Few people will drop the gun from a surrender position, few will put it on top of an armored SUV and let it fall off, etc. Even fewer will have it hit at the angle and force required, even if they have one of the guns that will fire when dropped.

I still wouldn't store it above shoulder height and would treat it like a free floating firing pin equipped gun.

 

[BE Mike]

[video=youtube;ch7si_VQsGA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7si_VQsGA[/video]

Ok, you finally came up with some solid basis for your opinions. Congratulations! We'll see what Sig does now.

 

[M67]

So it suffers from Taurus Millennium drop? Without the tabbed trigger I was always curious about trigger momentum being able to do that but since it's never came to surface until now and all the testing had been done, I figured Sig somehow came up with a system that wouldn't fire

 

[Spike Jones 5 2002]

From my recent experience with my Sig Sauer.
I would not trust a Sig Sauer again.
I am very sure they have some lane excuse of what happened was the cause by the person.

 

[BE Mike]

One thing that came to mind after watching the video is that they did the drop test on the full size P 320. I wonder if the compact and sub-compact would be subject to the same thing since their slide masses are less, therefore transferring less energy?

 

[BE Mike]

From my recent experience with my Sig Sauer.
I would not trust a Sig Sauer again.
I am very sure they have some lane excuse of what happened was the cause by the person.

If you are talking about the Sig Mosquito, yeah, they always have been junk IMHO. Sorry you bought one before finding that out. I'm not a fan of many Sig models. Not because they are junk, but because I don't like the ergonomics. Most of them just don't fit me as they come from the factory.

 

[cedartop]

One thing that came to mind after watching the video is that they did the drop test on the full size P 320. I wonder if the compact and sub-compact would be subject to the same thing since their slide masses are less, therefore transferring less energy?

They said it happened across frame sizes and calibers.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Ok, you finally came up with some solid basis for your opinions. Congratulations! We'll see what Sig does now.

Whatever you need to tell yourself. I've known about this for over a year, and Sig has known about it longer. I've mentioned it on this very forum at least as far back as January. The fact it's just now entering the public consciousness and corroborates what I've said before the current hoopla would appear to confirm I always had a solid basis for my "opinion". I don't talk out my backside, and I try to make it clear when I know something vs when I suspect something.

I can't predict what Sig will do for the consumer and .le market. I doubt it affects the military in the slightest, mostly because they are not "vanilla" P320s. They are equipped with a thumb safety which should lock the trigger when applied. (which just might explain why it did ok in military testing but not so good in some other tests) The military typically uses empty chamber carry for the rank and file. It's already a rare set of circumstances required to get it to go bang when dropped, it'd be a perfect storm for Pvt. Snuffy to get his to go bang accidentally (at least due to a drop).

 

[South Bender]

Curious to see what Sig is going to do. This is bad, bad, bad for them. Free tabbed trigger upgrades?

 

[Hohn]

So it seems to me that this issue is 99.9999% moot. It is possible for a drop to cause an injury in the field? Yes. But it's also possible that I'd get attacked by a shark while snorkeling with a winning Powerball ticket in my shorts. Yet it is still somewhat improbable. I hope SIG is smart enough to avoid a Ford Pinto type of situation -- you cannot apply reason and rationality to what will certainly be an over-reaction by the public.

And there would be tremendous damage to the Sig brand if anything less that 100% was considered acceptable for the public.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

No, Ron Cohen, no! Ron, more testing, fewer rainbow sprinkles, Krav Maga action poses and unicorns!

 

[BE Mike]

Curious to see what Sig is going to do. This is bad, bad, bad for them. Free tabbed trigger upgrades?

Wow, I hope not. That's one of the biggest reasons I decided to go with the Sig P320.

 

[BE Mike]

Whatever you need to tell yourself. I've known about this for over a year, and Sig has known about it longer. I've mentioned it on this very forum at least as far back as January. The fact it's just now entering the public consciousness and corroborates what I've said before the current hoopla would appear to confirm I always had a solid basis for my "opinion". I don't talk out my backside, and I try to make it clear when I know something vs when I suspect something.

I can't predict what Sig will do for the consumer and .le market. I doubt it affects the military in the slightest, mostly because they are not "vanilla" P320s. They are equipped with a thumb safety which should lock the trigger when applied. (which just might explain why it did ok in military testing but not so good in some other tests) The military typically uses empty chamber carry for the rank and file. It's already a rare set of circumstances required to get it to go bang when dropped, it'd be a perfect storm for Pvt. Snuffy to get his to go bang accidentally (at least due to a drop).

I don't read all of your posts in every thread. I only responded to what you wrote on this one. If you already had inside information a long time ago, you didn't make that apparent, especially at the outset. I calls 'em likes I sees 'em. If it hurt your feelings, I apologize.