Personal Protection in Close Quarters, agree or disagree??

[Chefcook]

[ame]http://youtu.be/MqNnZKA3s3M[/ame]

 

[ray d]

This is what we also teach at Front sight

 

[Coach]

We (ACT) teach it mostly the same way with the support hand in the mid line of the body.

I don't like the way they talked about five steps for presenting the pistol, which a lot instructors seem to do to help teach the draw stroke. There might be a series of mechanical steps being done to present the pistol but I like to teach it as one seamless motion from the holster to firing the shot. This helps a newer shooter be smoother a lot sooner and smooth is fast.

Rention is a position that the gun always passes through on the way to full extention so it does not necessitate changing anything about the draw stroke.

 

[pudly]

Agree with Coach. I really didn't understand the point about putting the off-hand behind the head to protect from a blow. Seemed like that hand's role was left mostly undefined, but I would think keeping that hand mid-body by default with the ability to quickly push away or ward off blows would generally be more useful.

 

[esrice]

The only thing that gets me is when they put their arm up in the "defensive" position.

While it does get the arm clear of the muzzle during training, I don't think that my natural reaction would be to do that and leave my side/midsection open to attack-- especially when my attacker is 0-3 feet away from me. If someone is THAT close, its more likely that we'll both go hands-on first, and that I'll be shooting from retention in a clinch-type situation, if time and the situation allow it.

 

[squirrelhntr]

A yes vote. With the exception of maybe griping the weapon with both hands.

 

[cobber]

Moving the off-hand like that and exposing your abdomen is just crazy. Also, if you are moving to the front door in the scenario they gave, you should already have your firearm at ready; he's describing an action drawing from the holster (i.e., if you're responding to a threat in your house, why do you have a holstered firearm?).

 

[Double T]

If you are in close range, it was always my understanding from martial arts to not square off. drop your dominant leg back given the person less area to attack vitals.

I don't particularly understand their thinking on it. If you heard a noise, I would think you would already have your nightstand/SD gun unholstered and such before they burst through the door.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Kinda odd, am I missing something? The hosts makes reference to someone breaking into your home, and the instructor makes reference from drawing from your holster. Shouldn't your weapon already be "at ready" if there's an intruder in your home? ...certainly not holstered, right?
The instructor technique is legit, but only in the sense of having to respond immediately to a threat that was previously unknown.

 

[cbseniour]

Every school will have it's own technique but the idea is to get the gun out quick and pointed in the right direction then get that first s hot off quickly. Even if you miss with the first shot is will probably buy you a little time and space.

 

[Chefcook]

Agree with Coach. I really didn't understand the point about putting the off-hand behind the head to protect from a blow. Seemed like that hand's role was left mostly undefined, but I would think keeping that hand mid-body by default with the ability to quickly push away or ward off blows would generally be more useful.

This is why I posted a poll with the video. I also disagree with this. I probably should have made that point more clear. This constitutes a No vote.

 

[Prometheus]

This is why I posted a poll with the video. I also disagree with this. I probably should have made that point more clear. This constitutes a No vote.

To keep a consistent draw and not screw up the mechanics, I'm keeping my support hand at midline as opposed to putting it behind my head. Perhaps some better reason may make me reevaluate that, but I'm presenting the same way every time.

Going thru the close contact position on every draw, firing from it and extending out while firing if need be while incorporating moving off the X whenever possible. Virtually zero risk of shooting your support hand when it is against your body...

The guy in video made it seem like you heard something, but were sure of what it was and were going to investigate when the door was kicked in... would your gun already be out? I guess it depends. I expect my daughter home from school at X:XX. It's about that time and I hear something at the door, is the gun going to be out? Maybe, maybe not, depends on what I heard. In any event, be it this scenario or some other one, you could very well find yourself in a similar situation.

 

[Chefcook]

To keep a consistent draw and not screw up the mechanics, I'm keeping my support hand at midline as opposed to putting it behind my head. Perhaps some better reason may make me reevaluate that, but I'm presenting the same way every time.

Going thru the close contact position on every draw, firing from it and extending out while firing if need be while incorporating moving off the X whenever possible. Virtually zero risk of shooting your support hand when it is against your body...

The guy in video made it seem like you heard something, but were sure of what it was and were going to investigate when the door was kicked in... would your gun already be out? I guess it depends. I expect my daughter home from school at X:XX. It's about that time and I hear something at the door, is the gun going to be out? Maybe, maybe not, depends on what I heard. In any event, be it this scenario or some other one, you could very well find yourself in a similar situation.

I also think that throwing your arm all the way up and behind your head might make you kinda instinctively flinch as if a threat was perceived in your peripheral vision. While I am sure that could be overcome with practice, I also feel that having your arm by your side is a better position to be in if the need to extend into a two hand grip were to arise or become necessary to engage a second target at greater distance.

 

[Shay]

In my opinion the problem with the techniques taught in the video is they are explained as solving a combative ECQC problem, but they are done in a way that is completely not combative. If you stand straight up and try to fight like that you are going to be on your butt very quickly with an aggressive, forward-driving attacker.

If you only teach a tactic or technique static people will learn and practice it static. When they try to do it in a dynamic situation with resistance, they will most likely fail.

For what it's worth, I think it's much more important to protect the head than it is to leave the hand where it is on the belly. With the hand low like that it is effectively out of the fight. Also, it makes it more likely that you will shoot your non-gun hand because your hand cannot operate anywhere extended in the middle of the body without risking it being in front of your muzzle. This highlights one of the many reasons to have a depressed muzzle orientation when shooting from a retention position.

 

[led4thehed2]

Not so much an issue with a revolver
Like everyone else has said, this seems like an odd tactic. Drawing a weapon quickly, shooting from the hip, and lacing one hand behind your head to protect the cranium. Just the last part trips me up. Are we to assume all attacks will be at the head?

 

[rhino]

With all due respect to the gentleman in the video, I remain skeptical that the real/original reason for that hand placement is to protect the head from a blow. He may have been taught that way, but I think it's far more likely that the real reason was to ensure that the support hand was not in the way of the muzzle when firing. In other words, I believe it was done for potential liability or safety reasons.

When I do this on my own, I also raise my support hand, but I don't latch it to the back of my head. I hold it near my head to actually shield my head in case I have to use my actual hand to protect myself. This is one of the many things I learned from Henk Iverson and I think it makes good sense.

Unless we want to admit that the purpose is to make sure the support hand is obviously clear of anywhere the muzzle could be pointing, and we choose that we want to use that measure to make it so, I don't think holding the back of your noggin is a great idea here. If you're not going to actually place your support hand in a position where it could be useful to actually protect your head, leaving it on the centerline of your body makes a lot more sense, if for consistency if nothing else.

 

[Shay]

Protected retention is a valid position taught by several schools. Yes, I am one of them.

Your head is pretty important when it comes to things you have to protect when you want to be able to continue to fight. I think a lot of the comments in this thread might be from folks who don't hit people a lot or try not to let other people hit them. It's easy to say that the hand is kept with forearm to temple due to liability, but that's certainly not why I teach it. A properly done vertical elbow protects the head, face and neck from most high arcing and some linear attacks. In short it buys you time to do other things.

Here's an applicable quote from a student's AAR of a Southnarc ECQC class:

you need a Non-diagnostic Default Reaction, meaning you need one reaction that will work for a wide variety of attacks. Southnarc teaches a weak side vertical elbow shield and a strong side horizontal elbow shield, combined to protect your head and allow you to strike, clinch or disengage. Again, the goal is to stay conscious and upright, not go to the ground.

This is in the context of an empty hand default cover position, but the same vertical elbow is used for protection in a position 2 protected retention position. He teaches the horizontal elbow as an alternative in certain situations.

I think it's important to set the record straight. If you don't understand why something is taught you might want to ask rather than throw out a strawman.

Southnarc's horizontal elbow position 2:

 

[JetGirl]

Argggh! I am so distracted by the fricken tag hanging from the back of Minnie Pearl's hat, I've tried to pay attention to what's being said TWICE, and I just can't!

 

[rhino]

I think it's important to set the record straight. If you don't understand why something is taught you might want to ask rather than throw out a strawman.

In case you're referring to me, I based my comment on information I received a few years ago from a former Chief Rangemaster at Gunsite. Since the video featured a Gunsite instructor, I think it makes sense.

 

[brutalone]

Personally once I "draw" or have a weapon in my strong hand to start with.... My weak hand does NOTHING defensive..... It extends to create distance to threat.... twist violently the threat's right wrist... pulls the threat's left wrist forward and to my left, thus exposing that sweet, sweet back of the threat's left lung and head..... or grabs to hold threat while force (124gr +P Federal HST 9mm rounds x 3) is applied....