Planned Parenthood 2.0

[MilliJac]

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to HoughMade again.

Same boat, someone get him for me.

 

[Woobie]

What about consent?

Doesn't a person have a right to say to another person: "I don't want you inside my body anymore"? I believe we do.

Pregnancy changes a woman's body permanently. Motherhood changes a woman's life permanently. What if she has weighed the potential costs and benefits and she does not want to experience these changes? For me, a person who will never have to choose whether or not to have an abortion, that is ample reason to keep legal abortion on the table.

Once a baby has been born it no longer requires the consent of its mother to survive. For me this changes a great many things about the situation.

Pregnancy does indeed change a woman's life forever. The baby comes out the same way, dead or alive. Abortion doesn't prevent that. No matter how we try to gloss it over, there are lifelong emotional, and even sometimes physical consequences to ordering the death of your child. As far as weighing the consequences goes, why does everyone support that after intercourse, but not before?

 

[17 squirrel]

All this chatter about what a woman should do and to the best of my knowledge not a woman among you.
How about men stop telling a women what to do with there body and start telling other men to be more particular with how and whom they deliver their seed to. No fish = no pregnancy... What a novel idea.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

All this chatter about what a woman should do and to the best of my knowledge not a woman among you.
How about men stop telling a women what to do with there body and start telling other men to be more particular with how and whom they deliver their seed to. No fish = no pregnancy... What a novel idea.

Aren't we all equal? The blame lies equally on both. Men make the choice to have sex just as women do. Both parties, going into that decision, know what the outcome is.

 

[Thor]

Self control? Gasp...next thing you know you'll expect people to be responsible for their actions!

 

[steveh_131]

I think the area is greyer than you present it.

Tell him he's too binary. Go ahead. You know you want to

 

[HoughMade]

All this chatter about what a woman should do and to the best of my knowledge not a woman among you.
How about men stop telling a women what to do with there body and start telling other men to be more particular with how and whom they deliver their seed to. No fish = no pregnancy... What a novel idea.

I'm on board with that. MEN- STOP DELIVERING YOUR SEED TO WOMEN YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF RAISING A CHILD WITH!

 

[MisterChester]

When confronted by a "pro choicer" I ask, why do you hate babies?
Their ultimate goal is abortion on demand at any time. One of the cornerstones of the DMC.

When confronted by a "pro-lifer" I ask, why do you hate freedom?

 

[MisterChester]

We must defund Planned Parenthood. We can't have women running around getting cancer screenings and Pap smears!

 

[Woobie]

All this chatter about what a woman should do and to the best of my knowledge not a woman among you.
How about men stop telling a women what to do with there body and start telling other men to be more particular with how and whom they deliver their seed to. No fish = no pregnancy... What a novel idea.

You'll get no argument from me about male responsibility. It might be the single greatest societal issue we face. I'm just not down with killing children. And I don't really want to designate a certain demographic as exempt from the laws regarding homicide.

 

[17 squirrel]

Aren't we all equal? The blame lies equally on both. Men make the choice to have sex just as women do. Both parties, going into that decision, know what the outcome is.

Hopefully we are all equal, but all the pro life men here don't ever seem to blame the men the same as women get blamed.
alas abortions have been done since what time in history say around 1550 BCE, so along time to say the least. It's always been the woman's fault, more so in modern times.
Like old Dr Phil says, How's it working out so far for the right to life so far ?
It's ain't working, that's how it's working.
How about blame the men who can't control their deposits for the next 50 years and leave the women alone.

 

[Woobie]

We must defund Planned Parenthood. We can't have women running around getting cancer screenings and Pap smears!

If only that were the purpose of PP. There are plenty of avenues for women to receive that sort of care, and financial assistance for them if they can not afford it. To support an organization that facilitates the murders of a million children a year in the name of cheap health care borders on the insane. Does Hitler get to gas Jews as long as he gives prostate exams and colonoscopies to "Arians"?

 

[MisterChester]

If only that were the purpose of PP. There are plenty of avenues for women to receive that sort of care, and financial assistance for them if they can not afford it. To support an organization that facilitates the murders of a million children a year in the name of cheap health care borders on the insane. Does Hitler get to gas Jews as long as he gives prostate exams and colonoscopies to "Arians"?

Comparing abortions to genocide is absurd and intellectually dishonest.

If you hate abortion so much, then start a movement to get PP out of the abortion business completely. You don't have to kill the fly with a bazooka, PP offers many other vital services aside from abortion.

 

[Woobie]

Hopefully we are all equal, but all the pro life men here don't ever seem to blame the men the same as women get blamed.
alas abortions have been done since what time in history say around 1550 BCE, so along time to say the least. It's always been the woman's fault, more so in modern times.
Like old Dr Phil says, How's it working out so far for the right to life so far ?
It's ain't working, that's how it's working.
How about blame the men who can't control their deposits for the next 50 years and leave the women alone.

Are we quoting Dr. Phil as an expert witness here? Ok. Who wants to see what Maury Povich has to say?And how does the good Dr. know it's not working? We're not doing anything remotely pro-life in this nation.

It is a cop out to lay responsibility to handle an issue upon a certain group, when that issue affects the whole society. And your statement assumes that every woman who engages in intercourse is a victim of the act. She is powerless in the control of an out of control man, insatiable in his lust. This simply does not match reality. Do men need to control themselves? Yes. So do women. If they do not, death for the resulting child should not be the outcome.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

We must defund Planned Parenthood. We can't have women running around getting cancer screenings and Pap smears!

Bit of a strawman. Although your use of purple is noted in my judgement of the post.

 

[Woobie]

Comparing abortions to genocide is absurd and intellectually dishonest.

If you hate abortion so much, then start a movement to get PP out of the abortion business completely. You don't have to kill the fly with a bazooka, PP offers many other vital services aside from abortion.

That would be like trying to get police out of law enforcement. They offer other vital services, but they exist to uphold the law.

I take exception to the accusation of dishonesty. 58 million people in 42 years is a number that exceeds any genocidal event that I can recall. It is not genocide, as it is not exclusive to an ethnic group, although it disproportionately effects blacks (a fact that has its roots in design, not chance). However, it is a human tragedy on a scale, if not the intensity, matched only by the Second World War in human history. It is unmatched if you consider the worldwide numbers of over 1 billion in the last 35 years.

 

[jamil]

What about consent?

Doesn't a person have a right to say to another person: "I don't want you inside my body anymore"? I believe we do.

Pregnancy changes a woman's body permanently. Motherhood changes a woman's life permanently. What if she has weighed the potential costs and benefits and she does not want to experience these changes? For me, a person who will never have to choose whether or not to have an abortion, that is ample reason to keep legal abortion on the table.

Once a baby has been born it no longer requires the consent of its mother to survive. For me this changes a great many things about the situation.

So the day before her due date, if she just doesn't feel like going through with it, does she still have a right to kill the baby? So it's the umbilical cord that negates any right the child has to live. It seems that's what you're saying.

As for the underlined part, people never having to make a particular decision, is not a reason to make something legal or not legal. And I'm not saying that I want all abortions to be illegal. I do think that there is a point during prenatal development, where the thing growing inside the womb is not just tissue. It is a thinking, feeling baby human. At that point convenience is out the window. If she wanted convenience she should have thought about it long before then. She brought herself to that point and is responsible. And I'm just not okay with killing people, as HoughMade says, for really no other reason than convenience.

 

[gstanley102]

Comparing abortions to genocide is absurd and intellectually dishonest.
If you hate abortion so much, then start a movement to get PP out of the abortion business completely. You don't have to kill the fly with a bazooka, PP offers many other vital services aside from abortion.

Says the guy that compared abortion to a pap smear.

 

[17 squirrel]

I used the good old Dr Phil reference in the text of " how's it working for you so far " and that's it. Sorry I forgot the quotes.
The point is, the religious right always beats up the woman, always..
.and its not working for you guys..
Remember what's the definion of crazy ?
The results are the same for the religious right every time, you all rant and rave, picket, burn, murder, threaten and on and on.. its still legal.. Again it's still legal....
Maybe it's time for you all to change your game plan ?
Go beat up the men for awhile. Maybe then the laws will be changed.




Oh this is JMHO here.. And I hate these threads,,

 

[jamil]

To be certain, there are different thoughts about this. I appreciate the time and thought you have put into this issue. Here are a few more thoughts of mine.



Supersede? Only if the baby is trying to kill the mother. "Putting a woman through" pregnancy and birth (because women may then give away the baby if they like) is not, in any way, equivalent to killing the child. To be clear- abortion allows the mothers rights to kill the baby. Not allowing abortion allows a baby to inconvenience the mother and maybe cause embarrassment for a few months if she wishes to end the relationship after birth, she may. There is no equivalence. These are two humans and one's right to be rid of discomfort and inconvenience do not justify killing.



I don't know why religion is a necessary discussion in the abortion debate. A good secular humanist should be in favor of not killing humans. The atheists, secular humanists, agnostics, I know all value human life. Every one of them. The logical (not supernaturally revealed, but logical) end to valuing human life is that every human life is worth protecting. What is magical about the moment of birth that the full force of the law will now protect a life that all science agrees was present months before? Balancing the value of one human life versus another? Sounds like a dangerous road. I wonder what human lives will be deemed of less value next. No religion- humanism.



Different people can have different beliefs and I love that about about our society. My issues is simply that one belief system ends lives for convenience.



This is by no means an objective standard that can be applied legally. This varies with each individual and is subject to change as science advances. What is a thought? What is "feeling". Does reflex to stimuli count? If not, why not?



And we certainly agree on this.

When I say supersede, I mean the point at which the mother's right to not be inconvenienced is outweighed by the baby's right to live. You say after conception that point is never reached. And that does depend on when you believe a person gains rights. I don't think living cells necessarily have rights. When those cells form something that can think and feel, however we decide to define those terms, to me that's objective enough even if we can't necessarily measure when that happens yet. I know my son could think and feel when he came out. And I know that cutting the umbilical cord did not mark the moment when that happened. His ability to think and feel happened much sooner.

I'm not saying religion must play a part in the discussion, I am saying that a person's religious views very much influences their beliefs, and also that such beliefs are not objective. As a Christian, you likely believe in the concept of a soul. Many Christians believe that a person has a soul upon conception. Okay, I get that. But it's dependent upon that belief and therefore is not objective.