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No thanks on the police state! 30 years ago students had gun racks in their trucks and Boy Scouts and everybody else carried pocket knives. We didn't have metal detectors, cops, drug dogs ............or shootings.
Be very careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
IGUANA
Because I carry a Kahr in my pocket, does it make me a less efficient programmer? Come on... I train with it as much as anyone would - does that make me a worse programmer?
Of course not but you desire to carry and I'm assuming you enjoy firearms to some degree. I would venture to guess most elementary school teachers do not desire to carry. Of course this is just a mere opinion with no basis on actual facts. I cant site some poll that asked nationwide grade school teachers how they feel about carrying a gun all day everyday. Then school would become a gun free zone, unless you're a teacher or a cop?
How many teachers do you think will actually desire to get training and carry a gun on them while they're at school or attending a school function if they had no desire to before this new program comes out allowing training for them? Probably not one in every single elementary school. To try and train the teachers to be their own security seems like a bad idea to me. Hire security presumably with some formal training (prior military, off duty LEO) thats fine, but to try and arm and train folks that have no inclination to do so is pointless. Wheres the money coming from to train these teachers with a newfound interest in carrying weapons? Each school system budget? Sure there might be some volunteers. But I think the answer for better security lies elsewhere.
I think the parental or retirees as volunteers would be the solution. The argument that they are not well trained does not hold water. First because training is easy to get, we have many war veterans that are parent, and we have many police officers who are parents. Second the reason these shooting's happen at school's is because the shooters know they will get no armed resistance. These people are cowards. If they truly wanted to make a name for themselves why would they not attack a police dept. If we have at least two armed people at each entrance to school these mass killings would come to an immediate end.
Next you're gonna say that armed citizens are a great idea until one of them starts shooting everyone up right, comrade? just taking your comment to it's logical conclusion.
How many public school employees are on INGO?? I know of at least one. When we were debating public school policy he joined in the debate, and provided some great information as I recall. And as I recall, he likes to shoot. i don't think he's on INGO to play TiddlyWinks...
Teachers are no different than any other occupation - many don't wish to carry - some do.
Not all programmers do. BUT AT LEAST THEY HAVE THAT CHOICE AVAILABLE. Teachers do not. And I don't confine it to card carrying union teachers. (mostly liberal). What about the janitor, the coach, the principal , there's tons of other people working at a school. Of all of the people working at a school, someone would carry - IF they didn't have their rights stripped from them by a bunch of zero brain - zero tolerance ninnies.
We are already broke - we cannot afford anything more. How many schools across America and a cop apiece at $100,000 a year each. (and if that math doesn't make sense to you , it's the loaded cost of employing someone. Holy budget buster batman - we can't go there! Allow people their natural rights and solve the problem. It will not solve everything - that's patently impossible - but it will put a solution in place that can shut it down as fast as possible. And it doesn't cost a darn thing.
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Yes they would come to an end no doubt about it. And I'm not saying force teachers,janators,office personnel ,or others to carry that would be a bad plan. But allowing those who want to do that would work. I'm not a cop,military,or trained bodyguard. But I have carried since my first born. I learn everyday new things but by no means am I a trained killer... But I am very aware of my surroundings and always think 2 steps ahead when I carry.safety is my biggest concern. Most people who do legally carry are the same way. And you can't tell me that if that school had this program in place it would of made it worse. Almost every school shooting has the same story of some adult or adults going after the attacker to protect the kids. We just need to give them something they can protect themselves with
When we moved from Chicago, I bought a gun. I have 2 daughters, and they have friends. To make sure that my wife, kids and I, are on the same page, I went to the library (internet was very slow and limited at that time), and brought pictures of people killed by guns. I did explained to my kids (9 and 7 at that time) what bullets do to the body, how they kill, how to check gun if it is loaded, how NOT to touch any gun, but if you do - how to hold safely.
Another lesson, never ending and very often repeated, it was how to behave if gun or nife are pulled out in anger. How to watch for people with intentions.
In this Connecticut shooting, kids (even with training) had no chance. They were in the room, and nowhere to run. Teacher, even if armed, stood a little chance of defending unless they had such drills.
This brings my point:
1. School doors have to be locked from inside, securely enough to prevent anyone from outside to kick them in easily, but easily opened from inside in case of fire
2. Have drills, not sure if those should be a "gunman in the school" drills (because it would create lots of anxiaty and fears among kids) but drills to make that kids follow teachr orders.
3. Make sure there is an emergency coded signal, for example it can be activated as a short burst siren, with an automatic call placed to a local PD.
4. Having someone armed, someone who is not far from the entry door (rear or front), and advertise that all over, might be used as deterrent.
Killers go to the area, where they know they have a chance to shoot - school, theater that is banning firearms, etc.
There should be a local cop coming to school to explain guns, and killing. Kids need to understand that live shooting is different than the one from "Call of Duty".
Another lesson, never ending and very often repeated, it was how to behave if gun or nife are pulled out in anger. How to watch for people with intentions.
In this Connecticut shooting, kids (even with training) had no chance. They were in the room, and nowhere to run. Teacher, even if armed, stood a little chance of defending unless they had such drills.
This brings my point:
1. School doors have to be locked from inside, securely enough to prevent anyone from outside to kick them in easily, but easily opened from inside in case of fire
2. Have drills, not sure if those should be a "gunman in the school" drills (because it would create lots of anxiaty and fears among kids) but drills to make that kids follow teachr orders.
3. Make sure there is an emergency coded signal, for example it can be activated as a short burst siren, with an automatic call placed to a local PD.
4. Having someone armed, someone who is not far from the entry door (rear or front), and advertise that all over, might be used as deterrent.
Killers go to the area, where they know they have a chance to shoot - school, theater that is banning firearms, etc.
There should be a local cop coming to school to explain guns, and killing. Kids need to understand that live shooting is different than the one from "Call of Duty".
As far as money goes for school upgrades.charge parents, i don't think it's right for others to have to pay for my kids so charge us. But ok that won't work it's still easy. You would be amazed at what you get if you ask. College lives off millions in donations. Friend of ours got a $30,000 playground for the school donated by the playground company. With free market there is always a way. But our friends kids are in a private school I'm dealing with a public school different rules.
On my mind.
This has been on my mind for some time, I've probably typed up 10 posts this weekend that covered a range of topics all stemming from the tragedy. Didn't post a single one. They all ended up being a mish-mash of my random thoughts that shared links only in my head.
1. There will not be a repeal on the school gun ban, there aren't enough proponents of that idea AND there's no suitable alternative solution.
2. Arming teachers, trained or not, is a BAD idea. They are teachers, they are not trained to take lives or save them, they are not military, leo, etc... They did not choose that profession to fill that role in society. They are educators and they need to stay educators.
3. AWB is most likely incoming and we most likely will not succeed in stopping it, we might be able to delay it however then have it repealed later.
4. Utilizing the police will not work because of the strain on local budgeting.
5. Utilizing Military however will work and there's so much military budgeting that we could redistribute some of it out of foreign wars and into protecting our youth.
6. #5 is not the real answer. #5 is the band-aid we can use until we find the real answer to the question. How do we accurately identify, assess, and protect people with mental health issues as well as ensure to the best of our ability to keep them from obtaining firearms?
a. You cannot keep a firearm out of the hands of someone bent on obtaining one.
b. Doing this without violating the basic fundamental rights of a person or the law of the land (The Constitution) should be foremost in the minds of those seeking a solution.
(Stop here please, #7 is my 4am rant filled with personal opinion and things on my mind.)
7. Everything is tied together and stimulating these issues. The war on drugs has resulted in overcrowded prisons across the nation forcing us to group nonviolent criminals with the violent which leads to an increase in violence while in and when out of the prison system. The economy has resulted in massive layoffs and job loss creating instability. The price of gas (only now going back down) has forced people to choose more carefully and taken people from prosperity to living on the edge of poverty. Corporations net billions of dollars, dodge taxes, and pay wages that keep their employees at or below the poverty line and unable to afford their own services in most cases then complain that the corporate tax rate is too high and they'll need to make cuts to staff to protect their BILLION dollar profit margins. Media coverage has increased awareness, it's also increased instruction to those with the propensity to do ill to others. Our inability to mind our own business and stay out of the affairs of others (foreign wars) has resulted in massive national debt which is a direct cause of the fiscal cliffs and debt ceilings that are increasingly destabilizing our economy and the world economy. To top this all off, we're an ever increasing population that is taking less incentive to care for the sick which are also ever increasing in population then rather than accept responsibility for what we've created with this mash of crap, we decide to blame an inanimate object.
This has been on my mind for some time, I've probably typed up 10 posts this weekend that covered a range of topics all stemming from the tragedy. Didn't post a single one. They all ended up being a mish-mash of my random thoughts that shared links only in my head.
1. There will not be a repeal on the school gun ban, there aren't enough proponents of that idea AND there's no suitable alternative solution.
2. Arming teachers, trained or not, is a BAD idea. They are teachers, they are not trained to take lives or save them, they are not military, leo, etc... They did not choose that profession to fill that role in society. They are educators and they need to stay educators.
3. AWB is most likely incoming and we most likely will not succeed in stopping it, we might be able to delay it however then have it repealed later.
4. Utilizing the police will not work because of the strain on local budgeting.
5. Utilizing Military however will work and there's so much military budgeting that we could redistribute some of it out of foreign wars and into protecting our youth.
6. #5 is not the real answer. #5 is the band-aid we can use until we find the real answer to the question. How do we accurately identify, assess, and protect people with mental health issues as well as ensure to the best of our ability to keep them from obtaining firearms?
a. You cannot keep a firearm out of the hands of someone bent on obtaining one.
b. Doing this without violating the basic fundamental rights of a person or the law of the land (The Constitution) should be foremost in the minds of those seeking a solution.
(Stop here please, #7 is my 4am rant filled with personal opinion and things on my mind.)
7. Everything is tied together and stimulating these issues. The war on drugs has resulted in overcrowded prisons across the nation forcing us to group nonviolent criminals with the violent which leads to an increase in violence while in and when out of the prison system. The economy has resulted in massive layoffs and job loss creating instability. The price of gas (only now going back down) has forced people to choose more carefully and taken people from prosperity to living on the edge of poverty. Corporations net billions of dollars, dodge taxes, and pay wages that keep their employees at or below the poverty line and unable to afford their own services in most cases then complain that the corporate tax rate is too high and they'll need to make cuts to staff to protect their BILLION dollar profit margins. Media coverage has increased awareness, it's also increased instruction to those with the propensity to do ill to others. Our inability to mind our own business and stay out of the affairs of others (foreign wars) has resulted in massive national debt which is a direct cause of the fiscal cliffs and debt ceilings that are increasingly destabilizing our economy and the world economy. To top this all off, we're an ever increasing population that is taking less incentive to care for the sick which are also ever increasing in population then rather than accept responsibility for what we've created with this mash of crap, we decide to blame an inanimate object.
How about using retired cops or veterans....someone who has already had the training, the on-the-job experience, but is looking for a source of income to complement their pension. They may even enjoy being around the kids.
No person or policy can predict or prevent abhorrent behavior, only interdict it once it has commenced. A possibility of force-on-force response could deter such actions, but the real solution is to heal our culture.
Look around you and see how we have cheapened life. Abortion, absentee fathers, welfare ancestry, popular music, film, media, video games, etc. all re-enforce the idea that life is cheap, the individual is disposable and not to be revered as a miracle of God's creation.
Until you can convince the world that killing unborn babies is wrong, you're not going to legislate a disturbed person out of murder. They'll use whatever weapon is at hand and feel all is right with their world.
No person or policy can predict or prevent abhorrent behavior, only interdict it once it has commenced. A possibility of force-on-force response could deter such actions, but the real solution is to heal our culture.
Look around you and see how we have cheapened life. Abortion, absentee fathers, welfare ancestry, popular music, film, media, video games, etc. all re-enforce the idea that life is cheap, the individual is disposable and not to be revered as a miracle of God's creation.
Until you can convince the world that killing unborn babies is wrong, you're not going to legislate a disturbed person out of murder. They'll use whatever weapon is at hand and feel all is right with their world.
Possible, BUT, it's not likely to be done. The use of active personnel would be ideal from a gov standpoint and from a parental standpoint "overall" (I mean from the left, middle, and right).
No, there will be no deterant factor with someone dealing with serious emotional problems or illness. They are making their decisions from an irrational place, unlike a "rational criminal" who is committing crimes with a goal to profit from their actions they will not be stopped by the possibility of resistance. They could however be stopped by resistance, but my point is the possibility of resistance will not deter these situations in the main. (Related link that partially looks into this even though it's technically about who should react.) https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo.../252359-active_shooter_incident_research.html
And I agree, we need to heal our culture, our people, that's where we start.
I understand not all will be stopped by just the thought of resistance at school but I bet it would stop a big majority of the shootings. They almost always kill themselves first sign of trouble. The whole point of the shooting is to cause massive harm and be talked about by everyone. That's why they go after soft targets. If we make schools a harder target then most,I don't see how that won't cut back on these shooting big time. We still need to deal with mental issues but this I think would calm the storm untill that is taken care of.
We do currently have ex police and military personnel working in our schools. Whether they be teachers, coaches, or janitor's they already have the training, and I believe most if not all of these people would be more than willing to take this responsibility.
Your 2nd point about it not being a deterant I disagree. I would argue that evidence shows they choose the places they choose because they know there will be no armed resistance until police arrive. That gives them ample time. With the recent shooting in CO the shooter drove by two theaters to get to the one he had chosen. One that he passed was the largest in the state. Nobody knows for sure the reason but the one he chose was the only one of 3 that had a "no guns" sign.
I would argue that the people we have been dealing with are cowards. The second they are met with resistance they end their own lives. I do believe this to be the case with every school shooting and most public mass shootings. There are always exceptions and nobody knows exactly what these people are thinking. I do believe strongly though that armed guards in school whoever they may be would certainly stop most if not all of these school shootings.
Do you suppose there aren't any teachers who would appreciate the ability to defend their own lives, and those of their students, should an armed intruder enter the building? I have a cousin who is retired from the USMC and is now a school teacher. I suspect he would prefer to take a gun to a gunfight rather than a stapler. I also suspect he isn't alone.
If a teacher is willing and able to properly carry and utilize a handgun I see no reason why they should not be allowed to do so. There is no other practical solution to stop one of these monsters before they kill more children.
We were talking about training teachers to carry and why it was a bad idea. We can talk about all the other folks that work there that dont have a degree to teach, like you mentioned coaches, janitors, etc. If we're talking about doing away with the "gun free zone" issue then yes I agree it should be done away with. As madmen won't be stopped by federal laws in their attempt to commit evil.
I agree with most of this. Some good points were made.
I understand we have off duty LEO in SOME schools, but the only real way to get them in ALL schools and have the situation be logistically reliable and not be prone to errors in coverage is to schedule coverage through a program/company. I'm proud that these people choose to do this and support our communities, I just don't see it being a complete and final answer to the issue.
I do believe that the free kill zones are an issue, AND that 99% of the time these things happen in those areas. I do not believe that eliminating them will stop this situation from happening particularly with the mentally ill. I don't know that calling them cowards is accurate, only because they in most cases have mental issues and I'm not prepared to call everyone that suffers mental instability and does something wrong a coward, no matter how wrong. That doesn't mean they weren't and that the ones that happen in the future aren't, only that I am not prepared to make that broad generalization.
As to KoopaKGB's teacher wanting to protect themself, I understand that completely as I cannot protect myself at work either without the risk of losing my job. A single or even a multitude of teachers carrying still poses issues and while I agree they should be able to protect themselves I simply know that too many Americans are not ok with having their children so close to armed civilians. Let me be clear that I do not care if teachers arm themselves, I don't think WE should arm them. I do not think WE as a society should force upon our teachers the role of civil protector.
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