Police chief refuses to sign class three paper work

[stephen87]

You can also have a prosecutor or judge sign off on it. Trust is the easiest way though. Wish I would have gotten mine sooner.



Can't sue him because there's nothing that requires him to sign. The ATF says that a CLEO sign off is required for paperwork done by an individual but there is nothing saying that the CLEO is required to sign. Being that you have several alternative routes, you would have to exhaust every one of them before the ATF would try to work out an alternative.

Actually, Indiana Code says that a government entity may not regulate firearms, ammunition, or firearms accessories. To me, this sounds like Treachman is regulating firearms.

 

[wsenefeld]

Actually, Indiana Code says that a government entity may not regulate firearms, ammunition, or firearms accessories. To me, this sounds like Treachman is regulating firearms.

Treachman wouldn't be the one regulating. The requirement is set by the ATF. They are requiring you to get a signature from someone who has no obligation to give it to you. If anyone was to be sued, it would be the ATF.

...but they give you plenty of other avenues to pursue to compete your Form 4 or whatever form you choose. CLEO (local/county), judge, prosecutor, trust, and corporation are all viable alternatives. As long as someone can still follow through with one of those alternatives, there is no case.

 

[Kimber]

Does anyone have MR Liston's phone number?

 

[Dead Duck]

Does anyone have MR Liston's phone number?

I can do you one better...

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/class-iii-nfa/350570-trusts.html#post5148230

 

[1911ly]

1911ly, can I ask who you had set the trust up?

I used Grant Liston.

 

[Kimber]

Thanks for all the advice everyone, I sent MR Liston an email. And learned a lot .

 

[AKMSU]

Where I moved from CLEO(Sheriff) also wouldn't sign off on the F4, went the trust route and haven't regretted it one bit. Saves time from running around and my wife could take the items out legally.

 

[ryknoll3]

This is why everyone that has posted on this thread should write to their state rep/senator OR an 2A friendly rep/senator and ask them to author a shall-sign bill. 4-5 states have passed one this year, and it seems that it goes hand-in-hand with Indiana's preemption laws. If the item is legal statewide, and CLEO signature is required to get it, they should have to sign.

 

[david890]

Second, NFA trust. More expensive but it cuts him out of the process and you'll never need his permission ever again.

A trust is only expensive if it is complicated (i.e., you have a wide variety of FA weapons, cans, SBRs, you have a LOT of money, and your Last Will is likely to be contested by someone). I have 4 cans - no FA firearms - and no family, so I used a boilerplate Trust I found on the Web. Indiana requires a bit more than other states (a "Certification of a Revocable Trust"), but that's just a few paragraphs.

IMHO, always go with a Trust, and if you have a lot of money invested in NFA items, hire an NFA attorney to set one up for you.

 

[stephen87]

Treachman wouldn't be the one regulating. The requirement is set by the ATF. They are requiring you to get a signature from someone who has no obligation to give it to you. If anyone was to be sued, it would be the ATF.

...but they give you plenty of other avenues to pursue to compete your Form 4 or whatever form you choose. CLEO (local/county), judge, prosecutor, trust, and corporation are all viable alternatives. As long as someone can still follow through with one of those alternatives, there is no case.

IANAL, but Treachman, at least in my eyes, is regulating firearms. NFA items, with few exceptions, are legal in the state of Indiana. The ATF has set up a way to own these items and Treachman is not signing, therefore regulating a legal item. I don't agree with NFA taxes, but for now that is the legal way to own certain firearms and accessories.

 

[ryknoll3]

A trust is only expensive if it is complicated (i.e., you have a wide variety of FA weapons, cans, SBRs, you have a LOT of money, and your Last Will is likely to be contested by someone). I have 4 cans - no FA firearms - and no family, so I used a boilerplate Trust I found on the Web. Indiana requires a bit more than other states (a "Certification of a Revocable Trust"), but that's just a few paragraphs.

IMHO, always go with a Trust, and if you have a lot of money invested in NFA items, hire an NFA attorney to set one up for you.

Having more NFA stuff, or full-auto doesn't make anything more complicated. All NFA stuff is created equal (except that you can't buy NEW machine guns). There's no magic about a machine gun that makes it more trouble for your trust.

 

[david890]

Having more NFA stuff, or full-auto doesn't make anything more complicated. All NFA stuff is created equal (except that you can't buy NEW machine guns). There's no magic about a machine gun that makes it more trouble for your trust.

It's certainly more complicated when the overall value of the Trust is in the high 5-figures, as opposed to a few hundred for a single can. I suspect that more FA weaps means some family member will be more likely to challenge the Will, especially if the Trust contains a high-value FA firearm such as an M-60 or Ma-Deuce.

As for "all NFA stuff is created equal", I'd wager the BATFE has far fewer concerns when one or two cans are involved than when six or seven full-auto/SBR weaps are involved. Also, I'm sure they take a much closer look at the guy who has amassed one or two dozen NFA items as opposed to someone who owns just one or two cans.

I had no concerns using a Trust I found on the Web, simply because I have only cans and no family to fight over it (you should have seen the sparks fly over some mediocre antiques from my late Mother's estate!). However, if I had 5- or 6-figures invested in NFA items and a large family, I'd sure as heck hire an NFA attorney to make sure all bases are covered. When a lot of money is involved, past behavior is no indicator of future behavior, especially among family members!

 

[ghuns]

When a lot of money is involved, past behavior is no indicator of future behavior, especially among family members!

Ain't that the truth.

What's even more disappointing is how low the number has to be for some to consider it "a lot" and destroy relationships built over a lifetime.

 

[Force10]

It's certainly more complicated when the overall value of the Trust is in the high 5-figures, as opposed to a few hundred for a single can. I suspect that more FA weaps means some family member will be more likely to challenge the Will, especially if the Trust contains a high-value FA firearm such as an M-60 or Ma-Deuce.

As for "all NFA stuff is created equal", I'd wager the BATFE has far fewer concerns when one or two cans are involved than when six or seven full-auto/SBR weaps are involved. Also, I'm sure they take a much closer look at the guy who has amassed one or two dozen NFA items as opposed to someone who owns just one or two cans.

When a lot of money is involved, past behavior is no indicator of future behavior, especially among family members!

This is just my newbie understanding but I feel the trust makes 1) purchases easier, currently no background check/fingerprinting, 2) portability more realistic, all trustees if legal person to own weapons have legal access to NFA items, and 3) slightly easier transfer of items upon the primary trustee's demise. I say slightly because under current laws there is not need to [STRIKE]get[/STRIKE] pay for a new tax stamp for the transfer of an NFA item out of an estate. As far as protection from the ATF, a few hundred bucks is a small investment to pay to have a legit lawyer write up your trust, regardless of "overall value." I doubt the ATF is as uncaring about "one or two cans" as you give them credit. For disbursement of the NFA items (or any other materially valuable item) it is best to have a sound will, something not even the best trust is meant to replace.

I hear ya on family feuds and money though, Grandma might only have had $20 but all three kids think they deserve $25 apiece... Ridiculous.

 

[fireman1212224]

Good to know there are other options out there

 

[Trigger Time]

Good to know there are other options out there

He's making a run for 50 me thinks

 

[LANShark42]

Ok my local police chief refuses to sign my class three paper work. No reason given just refused. I have a permit to carry and I also have a twic card I also own a few rifles and hand guns. I have had no trouble with the law in any way. Trying to set up a meeting for face to face but that's not working out to well either. What are my options at this time?

twic - is that some kind of government charity - like WIC - for guns???

 

[KG1]

He's making a run for 50 me thinks

Yeah, it only took him 4 years to give it a serious go. Well maybe not so serious since he only has 8 posts.

 

[actaeon277]

twic - is that some kind of government charity - like WIC - for guns???

Transportation Worker Identity Card..... I think.

I have one also. It's a Dept. Of Homeland Security thing for places they view as "important"

 

[Brian Ski]

Ok my local police chief refuses to sign my class three paper work.

What have you found out or done so far??? I am out in the county and have no problem with getting the sheriffs to sign. Might try giving that a try. Let me know what you find out.

Signing has always worked for me. I didn't want the hassle of a trust so the sigs have been good enough. No plans on picking anything else up in the future. MG prices have gone way up.