Police Kill Man Who Answered Door With Gun In Hand

[Route 45]

This is like OODA Loop: The Video.

He did try to ditch the gun, but it was akin to a soldier trying to throw up his hands and surrender after a live grenade just landed at his feet. Police have reactionary gaps just like everyone else, trying to surrender won't do you any good when they're already halfway through the trigger press because you threw open the door and stormed out with a gun in your hand. Tragic, but the police are not at fault simply because they failed to use superhuman means to save you from your own bad choices.

He wanted to play tough guy with a gun.

I guess the scorching heat in Arizona screws with reactionary gaps. Ask Daniel Shaver.

 

[Ark]

I guess the scorching heat in Arizona screws with reactionary gaps. Ask Daniel Shaver.

There's nothing comparable about the two cases.

 

[Route 45]

There's nothing comparable about the two cases.

Well, they were both in Arizona. Both police shootings. Shaver was a bad shoot, and this one looks like it could be.

How do you feel about the police shooting someone who signals an intent to surrender and starts to go to the ground and appears to be laying his gun on the ground?

I don't know. Maybe the dude did a Curly Bill flip with his gun that we can't see in the video.

 

[Ark]

How do you feel about the police shooting someone who signals an intent to surrender and starts to go to the ground and appears to be laying his gun on the ground?

He didn't signal that intent fast enough to get ahead of the trigger press. It's that simple. Humans have reaction times. It takes 1.5 seconds to draw and fire. If you attempt to ditch your gun and give up at the 1.2 second mark, there is a good chance that the remaining 0.3 seconds is not going to be long enough for the other person to collect that information, process it, and abort their trigger press. That's just life and biological reality, it's nobody's fault.

At most the police are guilty of not possessing superhuman reaction times and mystical psychic perception enough to read his mind and save him from his own bad judgement.

 

[Route 45]

He didn't signal that intent fast enough to get ahead of the trigger press. It's that simple. Humans have reaction times. It takes 1.5 seconds to draw and fire. If you attempt to ditch your gun and give up at the 1.2 second mark, there is a good chance that the remaining 0.3 seconds is not going to be long enough for the other person to collect that information, process it, and abort their trigger press. That's just life and biological reality, it's nobody's fault.

At most the police are guilty of not possessing superhuman reaction times and mystical psychic perception enough to read his mind and save him from his own bad judgement.

Don't lecture me on statistics and stopwatch games, I did this **** for a living and retired from it. The officer actually perceived the threat quickly enough, gave verbal commands to drop it, then shot the guy as he was doing exactly that. Who the hell perceives "whoa!" and crouching to lay on the ground as threatening?

 

[Tombs]

Considering it was the middle of the night, and he had a strange knock on the door, answering the door with a gun is not uncalled for.

As soon as he noticed they were police officers, he instinctively tried to push the gun out of sight behind himself. You know, because he didn't want to get shot.
He complied with orders about as quickly as is reasonable to expect in the middle of the night.

He was shot while clearly submitting to orders.

I've seen this video a lot before, and had plenty of time to think it over. It's the first clear cut in-the-wrong police shooting I've seen.

 

[Butch627]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R49P9TuFLOQ Here is another video of the shoot and immediately afterwards with his girlfriend coming into the camera and talking. What the girlfriend says seems pretty damming as to the reasons the cops were called.

 

[Route 45]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R49P9TuFLOQ Here is another video of the shoot and immediately afterwards with his girlfriend coming into the camera and talking. What the girlfriend says seems pretty damming as to the reasons the cops were called.

The guy who called 911 originally called it in as a noise complaint, then said it was a domestic. He even said, "whatever gets you guys out here quicker," because they were apparently making too much noise for him to sleep.

Regarding the police response, what department trains its officers to just waltz up to the door of a supposed domestic disturbance and immediately knock and announce? I always listened first to try to get an idea of what was really going on.

 

[DadSmith]

He's another thing what if the person is deaf like me. Without a hearing aid I need 105 decibels to hear normal speech. I don't wear my hearing aid unless going somewhere. So someone like me would not hear any commands. I bet they are not trained for a situation when dealing with people like myself. What would be a good response for someone like me once I notice it is law enforcement?

 

[ECS686]

This is like OODA Loop: The Video.

He did try to ditch the gun, but it was akin to a soldier trying to throw up his hands and surrender after a live grenade just landed at his feet. Police have reactionary gaps just like everyone else, trying to surrender won't do you any good when they're already halfway through the trigger press because you threw open the door and stormed out with a gun in your hand. Tragic, but the police are not at fault simply because they failed to use superhuman means to save you from your own bad choices.

He wanted to play tough guy with a gun.

^^^THIS^^^ Anyone that has any background in LE training will know this. Also that little pesky Supreme Court rule called Graham vs Connor. Where like it or not is the guidline.

 

[2A_Tom]

I wear hearing aids and I heard bang, bang, bang,"FEEKS PLEASE".

Yes I would have been armed. No I would not have opened the door. I would have asked for clarification and asked what they wanted.

 

[DadSmith]

I wear hearing aids and I heard bang, bang, bang,"FEEKS PLEASE".

Yes I would have been armed. No I would not have opened the door. I would have asked for clarification and asked what they wanted.

I would not have went out the door myself and would have opened it slightly to see who or what was going on. My dog would be going nuts also so can't open it unless someone needs some fangs. Still if you don't hear a command you are in big trouble. She is my ears otherwise I would not know if anyone is on my property without her letting me know. She even wakes me up to noises. Took about 8 months to train her, and she does her job well.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

He didn't signal that intent fast enough to get ahead of the trigger press. It's that simple. Humans have reaction times. It takes 1.5 seconds to draw and fire. If you attempt to ditch your gun and give up at the 1.2 second mark, there is a good chance that the remaining 0.3 seconds is not going to be long enough for the other person to collect that information, process it, and abort their trigger press. That's just life and biological reality, it's nobody's fault.

At most the police are guilty of not possessing superhuman reaction times and mystical psychic perception enough to read his mind and save him from his own bad judgement.

Just maybe if the carpenter didn't have his hammer in his hand long before it was time to set a nail not so many nails would be bent when driven.

 

[Route 45]

^^^THIS^^^ Anyone that has any background in LE training will know this. Also that little pesky Supreme Court rule called Graham vs Connor. Where like it or not is the guidline.

It is not objectively reasonable to give commands to disarm, then shoot someone in the back as they are complying. Graham v Connor does not apply.

For those amateur scientists on INGO that are attempting to explain away the fact that Officer #1 shot a man in the back while he was surrendering, ever hear of sympathetic nervous system fire? This is the tendency of multiple officers to fire at a threat upon one officer firing, despite the fact that the other officers do not actually see the threat. This did not occur here.

Why did Officer 2 not fire his weapon, despite the fact that he was clearly aware of the threat and was actually the officer most threatened by Whitaker? Maybe he is not a slave to nerve impulses and can actually make good decisions under stress. I guess his OODA must actually be working properly.

I heard Officer 2 talking to the girlfriend, stating "I didn't shoot him, my partner did." Yeah, he doesn't want any part of this. He knows what's up.

 

[Jaybird1980]

The guy who called 911 originally called it in as a noise complaint, then said it was a domestic. He even said, "whatever gets you guys out here quicker," because they were apparently making too much noise for him to sleep.

Regarding the police response, what department trains its officers to just waltz up to the door of a supposed domestic disturbance and immediately knock and announce? I always listened first to try to get an idea of what was really going on.

What did the officer say He didn't have time for?
I think the caller needs to be questioned.

 

[jd4320t]

I saw him and the handgun and then he put the gun behind him. Why? That alone would make any one of us cautious that something bad was about to happen next.

If his next movement showed the gun again in any way other than going straight to the ground I assume that’s when they felt threatened.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

It is not objectively reasonable to give commands to disarm, then shoot someone in the back as they are complying. Graham v Connor does not apply.

For those amateur scientists on INGO that are attempting to explain away the fact that Officer #1 shot a man in the back while he was surrendering, ever hear of sympathetic nervous system fire? This is the tendency of multiple officers to fire at a threat upon one officer firing, despite the fact that the other officers do not actually see the threat. This did not occur here.

Why did Officer 2 not fire his weapon, despite the fact that he was clearly aware of the threat and was actually the officer most threatened by Whitaker? Maybe he is not a slave to nerve impulses and can actually make good decisions under stress. I guess his OODA must actually be working properly.

I heard Officer 2 talking to the girlfriend, stating "I didn't shoot him, my partner did." Yeah, he doesn't want any part of this. He knows what's up.

And now Officer 2 has been dragged into the abyss of a shooting that will change his life forever. Home or desk with pay, court, civil suit and so on... He knew right then...
Ohhhh **** what did he just do....

 

[Route 45]

What did the officer say He didn't have time for?
I think the caller needs to be questioned.

Not sure what he didn't have time for. Maybe joking or annoyed at the call.

Whatever it was, he sure got stuck there for a while anyway.

 

[Jaybird1980]

That's for sure

 

[ECS686]

It is not objectively reasonable to give commands to disarm, then shoot someone in the back as they are complying. Graham v Connor does not apply.

For those amateur scientists on INGO that are attempting to explain away the fact that Officer #1 shot a man in the back while he was surrendering, ever hear of sympathetic nervous system fire? This is the tendency of multiple officers to fire at a threat upon one officer firing, despite the fact that the other officers do not actually see the threat. This did not occur here.

Why did Officer 2 not fire his weapon, despite the fact that he was clearly aware of the threat and was actually the officer most threatened by Whitaker? Maybe he is not a slave to nerve impulses and can actually make good decisions under stress. I guess his OODA must actually be working properly.

I heard Officer 2 talking to the girlfriend, stating "I didn't shoot him, my partner did." Yeah, he doesn't want any part of this. He knows what's up.

Respectfully, I just retired and one of my colateral duties was I was a certified through FLETC as a firearms and UOF instructor. The problem is this case (and several others like it) fall in that OODA loop There are several incidents where LEOs (and Citizens) have shot perps in the back WITHIN that 1-3 secind window They usually are not charged.

And I have no dog in this fight just explaining, A case (especially) where a subject has a weapon the Benifit of the doubt is always given to the Officer within reason on reacting (that 1-3 seconds)

Those that do it way outside that window or without bejng justified anyway where a subject is yards away and fleeing the LEO has been charged. (That Charlston area LEO a few years ago comes to mind)

If LEOs used deadly force every time they were legally allowed the LE involved shootings would be 5 ro 6 tmes higher.

As far as the second Officer they probably fell within that realm.