Police Kill Man Who Answered Door With Gun In Hand

[Ziggidy]

There are several incidents where LEOs (and Citizens) have shot perps in the back WITHIN that 1-3 secind window They usually are not charged.

I am no expert, all I have is an opinion. I find it hard to imagine a citizen shooting someone in the back and not being charged; regardless of the time frame in seconds.

I personally hope this officer is not emotionally and professionally scarred from this situation. No one goes into an uncertain area, meets a man with a gun and intentionally shoots him. It's unfortunate. The victim could have prevented his death (from what I could see).

This officer and his family needs prayer.

 

[ECS686]

I am no expert, all I have is an opinion. I find it hard to imagine a citizen shooting someone in the back and not being charged; regardless of the time frame in seconds.

I personally hope this officer is not emotionally and professionally scarred from this situation. No one goes into an uncertain area, meets a man with a gun and intentionally shoots him. It's unfortunate. The victim could have prevented his death (from what I could see).

This officer and his family needs prayer.

Totally agree with your thoughs on the Officer. He probably didn't set out that day thinking I hope this is he day! Not to get off topic but below is a real case but here are a couple scenerios Suspect is engaging and abruptly breaks, and turns.. A body can turn around in a fraction of a second. Example 2 suspect continues firing while running away.

It also can depend on Prosecutor. Vigo county had a case about 1999 homeowner investigated noise Stumbles upon inteuder in detached garage (that little fact can have a bearing) Confronted suapect ran past him. Homeowner older gentleman) Homeowner fwll glasses werw kist. Susoect was on way out the door, homowner fires from hip in direction of fleeing subject with 30 30 win striking subject in back of head. Prosecutor said he could charge him but declined bwcause at the end if the day the homeowner had the right ro be there and he wouldn't get a conviction.

 

[Route 45]

Respectfully, I just retired and one of my colateral duties was I was a certified through FLETC as a firearms and UOF instructor. The problem is this case (and several others like it) fall in that OODA loop There are several incidents where LEOs (and Citizens) have shot perps in the back WITHIN that 1-3 secind window They usually are not charged.

And I have no dog in this fight just explaining, A case (especially) where a subject has a weapon the Benifit of the doubt is always given to the Officer within reason on reacting (that 1-3 seconds)

Those that do it way outside that window or without bejng justified anyway where a subject is yards away and fleeing the LEO has been charged. (That Charlston area LEO a few years ago comes to mind)

If LEOs used deadly force every time they were legally allowed the LE involved shootings would be 5 ro 6 tmes higher.

As far as the second Officer they probably fell within that realm.

I'm betting that most of these back shootings are not suspects surrendering. I'd be interested to read a similar case, if you have one. The one with the old man in his garage who got his glasses knocked off is not really applicable. The decision not to charge was not made on the basis of law, as it is quite disallowed to shoot a fleeing person in the back in a similar circumstance. The prosecutor simply did not see a path to conviction and had the discretion to file or no-file.

If anything, the impetus might be to charge this back-shooting officer in the current climate, were it not for the fact that the victim is a white male. I don't see any riots popping up over this, so it falls within the OODA loop.

You are ignoring the fact that the officer clearly perceived the threat, issued verbal commands and then shot the guy in the back while he was complying. Why was the shooter's OODA loop so much different than the other officer, who was actually facing the threat and also drew his weapon, but did not fire?

 

[SOUP]

So, could the neighbor be sued or held civilly liable for a wrongful death here? My take on this was he was upset PD didn't respond to his noise complaint, so he called it in as a domestic to expediate their arrival? The GF made it pretty damn clear it wasn't a domestic.

Also, invest in a security system if you don't already have it. I'm 100% sure our victim would be alive and well today if he had access to live footage of his front door that night. There is no way in hell he heard PD's announcement and still walked out with a firearm like that. He had no clue who was at the door sadly.

I have a monitor in my bedroom that live feeds all of my cameras so that I know exactly what's going on at my door. Luckily for me it tends to just be the mail man.

 

[Sigblitz]

Don't lecture me on statistics and stopwatch games, I did this **** for a living and retired from it. The officer actually perceived the threat quickly enough, gave verbal commands to drop it, then shot the guy as he was doing exactly that. Who the hell perceives "whoa!" and crouching to lay on the ground as threatening?

I would let this guy here /\ in your life boat.

 

[ECS686]

I'm betting that most of these back shootings are not suspects surrendering. I'd be interested to read a similar case, if you have one. The one with the old man in his garage who got his glasses knocked off is not really applicable. The decision not to charge was not made on the basis of law, as it is quite disallowed to shoot a fleeing person in the back in a similar circumstance. The prosecutor simply did not see a path to conviction and had the discretion to file or no-file.

If anything, the impetus might be to charge this back-shooting officer in the current climate, were it not for the fact that the victim is a white male. I don't see any riots popping up over this, so it falls within the OODA loop.

You are ignoring the fact that the officer clearly perceived the threat, issued verbal commands and then shot the guy in the back while he was complying. Why was the shooter's OODA loop so much different than the other officer, who was actually facing the threat and also drew his weapon, but did not fire?

There was a case in LAPD back in the 90s (don't remember names etc) But loud noise complaints.

House party with people in costumes. Guy had a toy or fake gun with him (like the ones before they were orange) Officer verbally challenged him he didn't could hear etc (he was behind a glass door) but had the gun pointed i the LEOs direction. (apparently he was the only person observed as seperate room feo. the rest of the party) LEO fired after he didnt respond to several commands. during the shooting perp rapidly turned to flee (normal response) ended up with one or two holes in the back. (fatal)

Public and family went nuts DA charged Officer. Officer was aquited at Trial because this was one of the early cases if OODA was touched on and the defense brought i several Drs both physical and phycologist explaining how the brain reaction works.

AND LE experts brought in the fact LE nationwide has adopted the "shoot til the threat goes away" as most departments and states teach it. Why perps end up with 10 bullet wouds these days.

And while case law might be on anyones side at first. There's a lot more to a right or wrong shooting than a 15 second video and anyones opinion.

 

[Route 45]

There was a case in LAPD back in the 90s (don't remember names etc) But loud noise complaints.

House party with people in costumes. Guy had a toy or fake gun with him (like the ones before they were orange) Officer verbally challenged him he didn't could hear etc (he was behind a glass door) but had the gun pointed i the LEOs direction. (apparently he was the only person observed as seperate room feo. the rest of the party) LEO fired after he didnt respond to several commands. during the shooting perp rapidly turned to flee (normal response) ended up with one or two holes in the back. (fatal)

Public and family went nuts DA charged Officer. Officer was aquited at Trial because this was one of the early cases if OODA was touched on and the defense brought i several Drs both physical and phycologist explaining how the brain reaction works.

AND LE experts brought in the fact LE nationwide has adopted the "shoot til the threat goes away" as most departments and states teach it. Why perps end up with 10 bullet wouds these days.

And while case law might be on anyones side at first. There's a lot more to a right or wrong shooting than a 15 second video and anyones opinion.

Are you going to address the lack of sympathetic fire by the partner, the verbal surrender cue (whoa), the physical surrender cue (going to ground) or the fact that the victim pointed his gun at no one? The most damning point against the shooting officer is that his partner, who was actually there and not watching a video on the internet, did not think the guy needed extra ventilation.

As far as your still irrelevant costume party example...

[video=youtube;kFEK0Sbq4o8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFEK0Sbq4o8[/video]

 

[Sigblitz]

I heard Officer 2 talking to the girlfriend, stating "I didn't shoot him, my partner did." Yeah, he doesn't want any part of this. He knows what's up.

You get a glimpse of his wrist when he's explaining this. He's not wearing a watch. The shooter was wearing a watch.

Edit, video shows right wrist. Shooters watch was on left wrist. Shooter could still be a POS.

 

[ECS686]

Are you going to address the lack of sympathetic fire by the partner, the verbal surrender cue (whoa), the physical surrender cue (going to ground) or the fact that the victim pointed his gun at no one? The most damning point against the shooting officer is that his partner, who was actually there and not watching a video on the internet, did not think the guy needed extra ventilation.

As far as your still irrelevant costume party example...

[video=youtube;kFEK0Sbq4o8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFEK0Sbq4o8[/video]

Again repectfully, I'm ever adressed it because a partner or second persons failure to react doesn't always mean it was a bad shooting per case law or policy.

Thats what matters not what me, you or a second officer thinks. The 1st Officer was there as well. So 1 out of 2 that were decided or reacted by fire os no different

Ive been involved in several physical use of force incidents. Some where some officers didn't think (or didn't want to) use force where it was used yet by Dept Policy and law it was justified This is no different with a deadly force (I'm refering ro the decion naking ability) just the result is more serious.

And just because a suspect goes down doesn't mean its over.

Again I'm just explaining what is looked at during a LE involved shooting and what factors are considered. Anyone is welcome to try and effect change if it chaps them that bad. But when you walk outside with a gun outside a holster when anyone knocks on your door good luck with their perception on that!

 

[Gluemanz28]

From my experience in situations like this on INGO there are a few opinions given.
1) Officer shot too soon and should be prosecuted
2) Officer shot too late and put his partner at risk.
3) Officer did a great job!
Not sure I remember many of option 3

 

[2A_Tom]

+1 Highland police officer because he didn't shoot me!

Responses, Meh.

+1 Highland police officer

 

[Route 45]

Found the INGO OODA Loop training video.

 

[Dirtebiker]

The lesson? Don't open your door unless you're 100% certain you know who is on the other side.

Agreed! And if/when you do open the door, you open just enough to see and talk to those outside, keeping your foot against door and gun ready!

 

[KLB]

From my experience in situations like this on INGO there are a few opinions given.
1) Officer shot too soon and should be prosecuted
2) Officer shot too late and put his partner at risk.
3) Officer did a great job!
Not sure I remember many of option 3

I would hope not. In what circumstance would an officer killing an innocent person be doing a great job?

 

[Dirtebiker]

I just watched this a couple more times. This time with audio.
non shooting cop starts lying or at least stretching the truth to try to cover for his partner, saying the guy whipped the door open and insinuating that he started to bring his gun up (that’s what it sounded like to me).
Doesn't look like a good shoot from my armchair. I’m sure things seem very different in the moment.

 

[Pepi]

I'm just glad I'm not the cop

 

[Gluemanz28]

I would hope not. In what circumstance would an officer killing an innocent person be doing a great job?

When did I say anything about an officer shooting an innocent person doing a great job?

 

[Route 45]

I'm just glad I'm not the cop

I'm more glad that I'm not Whitaker.

 

[YoungMilsurpGuy]

Reminds me of what mass ayoob said to never answer the door after dark.

tbh if I get a knock on the door and somone claims to be police And I can’t see anything through the peep hole the door is staying locked.


The response is gonna be I’m sorry I don’t know who you are without a warrant I’m not going to let you in. If you want to enter my home weather as a warrantless LEO or a criminal you are going to have to bust in the door.

My wife will call 9/11 to confirm that it’s actually officers there, and if it’s not to get them over here to arrest the bozo on my porch for impersonating a LEO


https://youtu.be/YD3zIA6vJkQ

 

[injb]

Reminds me of what mass ayoob said to never answer the door after dark.

tbh if I get a knock on the door and somone claims to be police And I can’t see anything through the peep hole the door is staying locked.


The response is gonna be I’m sorry I don’t know who you are without a warrant I’m not going to let you in. If you want to enter my home weather as a warrantless LEO or a criminal you are going to have to bust in the door.

My wife will call 9/11 to confirm that it’s actually officers there, and if it’s not to get them over here to arrest the bozo on my porch for impersonating a LEO


https://youtu.be/YD3zIA6vJkQ

+1. There's a strong cognitive dissonance with opening a door while armed. If you don't think there's a potential danger, then why do you have a gun in your hand? And if you think there's a potential danger, then wtf would you open the door, or go anywhere near it?

Still, it was his home, and it's not a crime. He was doing what he was told - and if that's not enough to keep you alive, then what is?