Politically Motivated Violence Thread PART 2

[Route 45]

So I can now shoot someone for an open hand slap, and the presence of a can of pepper spray is justification for deadly force.

Hmm. Might be useful information going forward.

 

[chipbennett]

A guy armed with a gun and holding pepper spray, after getting in a heated argument, approaches and threatens violence against a guy you’re tasked to protect, [oops! You left out the part - right here - where Doloff initiated physical force, without lawful justification, by putting his hands on Keltner - and possibly, though certainly not verified to be, reaching for Keltner's holstered firearm] slaps you. [Oops, again! You left out the explanation for why deadly force is a reasonable response to being slapped (while still ignoring that Doloff was the initial physical aggressor] And you’re ok with it? Better you to turn the other cheek, and get slapped again, than me.

You seemed to have missed some elements.

 

[chipbennett]

Just out of curiosity, other than reaching for his gun, what would he have had to do to get you to draw down on him. If it were a punch rather than a slap, would that meet your requirement?

Even assuming that the person being slapped was NOT the initial physical aggressor (unlike the actual situation being discussed), why are you moving the goalposts? That hypothetical is irrelevant. You have essentially just said that deadly force is a justifiable response to being slapped. You don't get to rationalize that by changing the slap to some other form of physical contact.

 

[Route 45]

Good. This wasn't a applicable case of "Stand Your Ground." This was a case of some busybody thinking he was invincible, because he had a gun, looking for trouble. Manslaughter seems appropriate.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...nd-your-ground-dont-play-stupid-games-46.html

Interesting.

[video=youtube_share;si54FfbCceo]https://youtu.be/si54FfbCceo [/video]

 

[jamil]

A guy armed with a gun and holding pepper spray, after getting in a heated argument, approaches and threatens violence against a guy you’re tasked to protect, slaps you. And you’re ok with it? Better you to turn the other cheek, and get slapped again, than me.

That’s not the question. I didn’t say anything about that I’d be okay with being slapped if I were Dolloff. I’m not gonna shoot Someone over being slapped. Things haven’t escalated to that point yet from what we see in the video. I just want to make sure we’re reacting to the same question. Was deadly force justified? That means, would a person reasonably be in fear for his life under those circumstances? So would you shoot someone so that you wouldn’t get slapped again? Because you kinda made it sound like that.

 

[jamil]

Just out of curiosity, other than reaching for his gun, what would he have had to do to get you to draw down on him. If it were a punch rather than a slap, would that meet your requirement?

That’s easy. Would I have feared for my life? No. So no guns needed to be involved. If his honor was sullied by getting slapped, I mean, he could respond in like kind. But it looked to me like he instigated the slap by putting his hands on the other guy.

 

[KG1]

That’s easy. Would I have feared for my life? No. So no guns needed to be involved. If his honor was sullied by getting slapped, I mean, he could respond in like kind. But it looked to me like he instigated the slap by putting his hands on the other guy.

It's not like Keltner just walked up and slapped Doloff right off. The slap appeared to be the reaction to Doloff going hands on. Then there was a separation after which time Doloff introduced deadly force into the situation. From what I saw Keltner never did.

 

[OakRiver]

The relevant laws being discussed:
https://www.shouselaw.com/co/defense/laws/murder/2nd-degree/
What is second-degree murder?
Under Colorado law, a person commits the crime of murder in the second degree if the person knowingly causes the death of another person.


This distinguishes second-degree murder from the crime of manslaughter, which requires only that you act recklessly.


https://www.shouselaw.com/co/defense/laws/manslaughter/
Under Colorado law, manslaughter is a less serious form of homicide than murder. You commit manslaughter when:


You recklessly causes the death of another person; or
You intentionally cause or aid another person to commit suicide.

Based on the facts as we now know them, that should help with the understanding of why Dolloff was charged with second-degree murder.

 

[OakRiver]

Even assuming that the person being slapped was NOT the initial physical aggressor (unlike the actual situation being discussed), why are you moving the goalposts? That hypothetical is irrelevant. You have essentially just said that deadly force is a justifiable response to being slapped. You don't get to rationalize that by changing the slap to some other form of physical contact.

Seems that Colorado law supports what you're saying:
https://www.shouselaw.com/co/defense/legal-defenses/self-defense/
Colorado self-defense law allows people to use force to defend themselves or others when they reasonably believe it necessary to protect against imminent harm, and they use only the degree of force appropriate for the situation.

In some cases, this means you can use deadly force. You do not have to withdraw from an altercation before defending yourself. To raise your right to defend yourself, though, you cannot be the aggressor.

CRS 18-1-704 says:

“…a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.”
. . .
1.1 How much force can you use?
You can only use as much force as you reasonably believe is necessary to protect yourself.

In many cases, this means only using as much force as you are being threatened with. However, the degree of force that is justified depends on the situation.

Example: Paul punches George. George takes out a gun and shoots Paul. George may have used too much force for a self-defense argument.

1.2 When is deadly force available?
Deadly force can be used in some circumstances for self-defense. You have to reasonably believe that:

You are in imminent danger of being killed or getting severely hurt,
The assailant is committing a burglary and is about to use physical force against the occupant, or
The assailant is committing a kidnapping, robbery, sexual assault, or a felony assault.2
Your ability to use deadly force is at its peak if you are in your home. This is Colorado’s “Make My Day” law. It is at its weakest if you are only defending your property, not your person.

1.3 Stand Your Ground law
Colorado follows “Stand Your Ground” law. This law allows you to defend yourself without retreating from a fight, first. It allows people to use reasonable and appropriate force – including deadly force – without withdrawing.3

Unlike Colorado’s “Make My Day” law, Stand Your Ground applies outside the home, as well.

Example: The driver of a car is trying to run Robert over. Robert pulls out his gun and shoots the driver without trying to get out of the way.4

Stand Your Ground can be a defense for people who are trespassing on someone else’s property. However, it only allows trespassers to use self-defense against unlawful force.5 Because property owners can lawfully use force against a trespasser, there are some situations where trespassers cannot claim self-defense.

1.4 What is a reasonable belief?
To prove you were acting in self-defense, you have to show you “reasonably believed” several things:

You were facing imminent harm,
You had to use force to defend yourself, and
The amount of force you used was necessary to prevent the harm.
A reasonable belief is different from a subjective belief:

A subjective belief is something that only you need to have,
A reasonable belief is something that other people would have in the same situation.
A big part of a self-defense argument is convincing the jury that they would have done the same thing you did.

Importantly, a reasonable belief can still be wrong, in hindsight.6 You do not need to be absolutely certain that you need to use force to defend yourself. Instead, it is enough to show an apparent necessity.7

Example: David gets thrown out of a Christmas party. He said he was hit in the back of the head and heard a bang as he was pushed out the door. He turns and fires 3 shots into the closed door. This is not a reasonable belief that self-defense was necessary.8

1.5 What if you started or provoked the fight?
If you started an altercation, you can only claim self-defense if:

You withdraw from the encounter,
Effectively communicate your intent to withdraw, and
The other person continues to attack.9
If these 3 things happen, you turn from the initial aggressor into a victim. This allows you to use force in self-defense.10

Additionally, self-defense is not an option if you provoked the fight.11 This prevents people from creating an excuse to use self-defense.

 

[chipbennett]

The relevant laws being discussed:
https://www.shouselaw.com/co/defense/laws/murder/2nd-degree/
What is second-degree murder?
Under Colorado law, a person commits the crime of murder in the second degree if the person knowingly causes the death of another person.


This distinguishes second-degree murder from the crime of manslaughter, which requires only that you act recklessly.


https://www.shouselaw.com/co/defense/laws/manslaughter/
Under Colorado law, manslaughter is a less serious form of homicide than murder. You commit manslaughter when:


You recklessly causes the death of another person; or
You intentionally cause or aid another person to commit suicide.

Based on the facts as we now know them, that should help with the understanding of why Dolloff was charged with second-degree murder.

Unless Doloff was attempting to use deadly force against someone other than Keltner but mistakenly hit Keltner (as has been proposed up-thread), manslaughter would not apply. Discharging a firearm at a person is an willful act with intention to use deadly force, not a mere reckless act that results in death unintentionally.

 

[OakRiver]

Unless Doloff was attempting to use deadly force against someone other than Keltner but mistakenly hit Keltner (as has been proposed up-thread), manslaughter would not apply. Discharging a firearm at a person is an willful act with intention to use deadly force, not a mere reckless act that results in death unintentionally.

That is my understanding also. Recklessness is more typical in cases where there is a component of negligence, or gross negligence. The images in the public sphere do not appear to show negligence, they instead appear to show a deliberate act.

 

[chipbennett]

That is my understanding also. Recklessness is more typical in cases where there is a component of negligence, or gross negligence. The images in the public sphere do not appear to show negligence, they instead appear to show a deliberate act.

Intentional use of a firearm rarely leaves room for a negligent/reckless-act homicide. Intentionally pointing the muzzle at someone and intentionally pulling the trigger is prima facie evidence of intent, to the exclusion of negligence.

Negligent acts might include horseplay with a firearm, a dropped firearm discharging (unless you are a drunk FBI agent), a "cleaning" incident, etc. None of those acts include intentionally pointing the firearm at someone and intentionally discharging it. Playing "test the body armor" probably would not fall under that category. Playing with an "unloaded" firearm might fall under that category (if you have a merciful prosecutor).

 

[Kutnupe14]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...nd-your-ground-dont-play-stupid-games-46.html

Interesting.

[video=youtube_share;si54FfbCceo]https://youtu.be/si54FfbCceo [/video]

Spot on. Point pepper spray bro, thought he was invincible.

 

[Kutnupe14]

You seemed to have missed some elements.

Doloff was the aggressor? Yeah, not so much. Spray bro issued a threat, and advanced on the photographer. Doloff stepped in between the two. That’s not unlawful battery in any code that I’ve ever seen.

 

[bobzilla]

Doloff was the aggressor? Yeah, not so much. Spray bro issued a threat, and advanced on the photographer. Doloff stepped in between the two. That’s not unlawful battery in any code that I’ve ever seen.

So with all the things that have come to light since you are still calling this a good shoot?

 

[Kutnupe14]

So with all the things that have come to light since you are still calling this a good shoot?

The only way I’d call it a bad shoot, is if Dolloff pulled the trigger before spray bro deployed his pepper spray.

 

[chipbennett]

Doloff was the aggressor? Yeah, not so much. Spray bro issued a threat, and advanced on the photographer. Doloff stepped in between the two. That’s not unlawful battery in any code that I’ve ever seen.

Doloff was the first one to initiate physical contact, by putting hands on Keltner. Period. Verbal altercation does not justify the otherwise unlawful use of force (including putting hands on someone).

What I'm really trying to grasp here is your apparent position that verbal altercation justifies the use of force to prevent and that deadly force is a justifiable response to being slapped. Even if Doloff were justified in using force against Keltner (by initiating physical contact), how do you justify the use of deadly force (gun shot) in response to being slapped?

 

[chipbennett]

The only way I’d call it a bad shoot, is if Dolloff pulled the trigger before spray bro deployed his pepper spray.

It is 100% confirmed that Doloff drew on Keltner before Keltner deployed his pepper spray (and while Keltner was backing away). It is possible that Keltner managed to start deploying pepper spray before Doloff pulled the trigger, but even that is doubtful. Regardless, Doloff initiated the use of deadly force before pepper spray was deployed.

 

[bobzilla]

Doloff was the first one to initiate physical contact, by putting hands on Keltner. Period. Verbal altercation does not justify the otherwise unlawful use of force (including putting hands on someone).

What I'm really trying to grasp here is your apparent position that verbal altercation justifies the use of force to prevent and that deadly force is a justifiable response to being slapped. Even if Doloff were justified in using force against Keltner (by initiating physical contact), how do you justify the use of deadly force (gun shot) in response to being slapped?

because it doesn’t fit his political beliefs. He’s been the advocate of this very topic before when it involved Zimmerman and other bad people.

 

[bobzilla]

The only way I’d call it a bad shoot, is if Dolloff pulled the trigger before spray bro deployed his pepper spray.

So NOW you say that a face slap is the same as shooting someone. Got it. Well at least you’re consistent. That should be purple