Politically Motivated Violence Thread PART 2

[Kutnupe14]

It is 100% confirmed that Doloff drew on Keltner before Keltner deployed his pepper spray (and while Keltner was backing away). It is possible that Keltner managed to start deploying pepper spray before Doloff pulled the trigger, but even that is doubtful. Regardless, Doloff initiated the use of deadly force before pepper spray was deployed.

In order for your premise to ring true, you have to believe that Doloff was guilty of point a firearm without cause. I don’t see it that way.

 

[Alpo]

Or maybe he Paul Blarted his importance as a security professional and got a bit ahead of his lack of training.

 

[chipbennett]

In order for your premise to ring true, you have to believe that Doloff was guilty of point a firearm without cause. I don’t see it that way.

Do tell: what was Doloff's legally justifiable cause to point his firearm? Thus far, it is only established that he drew his firearm in response to being slapped.

 

[chipbennett]

Or maybe he Paul Blarted his importance as a security professional and got a bit ahead of his lack of training.

Exactly. Being a (literal) hired gun does not provide any special or additional statutory justification for what would otherwise be unlawful use of force (including placing hands in an unwanted manner on another person).

 

[Kutnupe14]

Do tell: what was Doloff's legally justifiable cause to point his firearm? Thus far, it is only established that he drew his firearm in response to being slapped.

Menacing

 

[chipbennett]

Menacing

The Colorado statute for "menacing":

(1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury.  Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:

(a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon;  or

(b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon.

So, your evidence that Keltner was "menacing"? Doloff was a third-party bystander who intervened in a verbal altercation. Doloff intervened by approaching, accosting, and assaulting Keltner. What did Keltner do or say that constituted "menacing" - and how did said "menacing" rise to the level that justified deadly force in self-defense in response?

And, we now have three different justifications that you have apparently made for Doloff's use of deadly force:

1. Keltner slapping Doloff (a slap does not justify deadly force in self-defense)
2. Keltner's presentation/use of pepper spray (Doloff drew and aimed his gun at Keltner before Keltner deployed pepper spray)
3. "Menacing" (still waiting for the evidence to support this one...)

At some point, it would be helpful if you would simply articulate your theory, using available evidence, that Doloff's use of deadly force was justified as self-defense. Because right now, it just appears that you're continually moving the goalposts, without ever articulating a theory.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Menacing

Don't know about Denver's laws, but no such thing in Indiana AFAIK. Certainly not worthy of proof of "being in fear for one's life or great bodily harm". And as has already been established, Keltner didn't deploy the pepper spray until after Doloff drew his gun. You seem to be ignoring that part.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

And Chip articulated it better than I did (as usual).

 

[BugI02]

Relax. It comes to your town or not.

Oh, if only I'd bought that 50-95 lever action when I had the chance!

Can still do 45-70 gov't without too much drama

 

[BugI02]

I’m willing to give Dolloff a fair shake. I just don’t see anything that would have made me draw on Keltner. Assuming Dolloff is an actor in good faith, from his perspective, he’s there to protect his client. He sees a guy who is obviously agitated from his encounter with the BLM guy. He’s holding a can of mace and walking aggressively towards the client. It’s reasonable to step in front of Keltner, and put his hands out in front, and ask him to stop, and then try to deescalate.

But it looked like he put his hands on Keltner, which would escalate things more, which is what appears to have happened. Keltner slapped him. And from the image sequence, it did not look like Keltner made any sudden moves like he was going for a gun. His left hand struck Dolloff, and the image sequence showed the follow through. He couldn’t have been going for a gun with his left. His right hand was occupied with the mace, which it looked like he was just starting to bring up, as Dolloff started to draw his weapon.

I’m trying to see it, but I just don’t see anything there that would have made me draw. And I get that we’re seeing a sequence of photoes that we can analyze afterwards, far outside of the time domain in which the events occurred. But I try to imagine myself in that time, In Dolloff’s position, with the most charitable interpretation of the facts. I don’t see Keltner reaching for a gun as Dolloff claimed.

Would you have drawn and fired having the same information that everyone else has? I really hope not. And iff Dolloff was reasonably in fear for his life, the defense will have to bring a lot more facts into evidence than we have now. It’s not ideological desire that brings me to that conclusion. Maybe there are more facts than the photos show. But if I’m on the jury, I’m going to be thinking as someone who carries a gun regularly, would I, and should I have drawn and fired. So far, no. I don’t think he should have been reasonably in fear for his or his client’s life. Especially if he had opportunities to deescalate.

More importantly, he is supposed to be a security professional who has had sufficient training to be employed armed. Thus, a more valid question would seem to be would a LEO put in the same position have drawn and fired

 

[NKBJ]

45-70 is a fine wheel weight chunking machine. I miss it.

 

[BugI02]

A guy armed with a gun and holding pepper spray, after getting in a heated argument, approaches and threatens violence against a guy you’re tasked to protect, slaps you. And you’re ok with it? Better you to turn the other cheek, and get slapped again, than me.

Do we know this? How do we know it, hopefully video+audio and not just Doloff's statements

 

[BugI02]

Just out of curiosity, other than reaching for his gun, what would he have had to do to get you to draw down on him. If it were a punch rather than a slap, would that meet your requirement?

This guy isn't just your average citizen and should be held to a higher standard, but no I would not have drawn on him. I believe people should be cognizant of the fact that drawing on someone puts you into a much more compressed time frame to decide whether to shoot. If I draw on someone, I've already made the decision about whether I would shoot them depending on their next actions. I just don't see a level of threat from the guy that would meet the reasonable person standard

 

[tsm]

The only way I’d call it a bad shoot, is if Dolloff pulled the trigger before spray bro deployed his pepper spray.

Good to know. With that philosophy, as soon as a protester starts pepper spraying the police and throwing rocks and bottles at them, the cops can immediately justify shooting to kill. That should slow down the BLM clowns a bit.

 

[BugI02]

Do tell: what was Doloff's legally justifiable cause to point his firearm? Thus far, it is only established that he drew his firearm in response to being slapped.

Plus if you're a 'security professional' shouldn't you have some unarmed combat skills rather than just rely on a gun?

I'm thinking 'don't write checks your ass can't cash' would apply

 

[jamil]

In order for your premise to ring true, you have to believe that Doloff was guilty of point a firearm without cause. I don’t see it that way.

What cause do you see in the video/photo evidence available?

 

[Kutnupe14]

The Colorado statute for "menacing":



So, your evidence that Keltner was "menacing"? Doloff was a third-party bystander who intervened in a verbal altercation. Doloff intervened by approaching, accosting, and assaulting Keltner. What did Keltner do or say that constituted "menacing" - and how did said "menacing" rise to the level that justified deadly force in self-defense in response?

And, we now have three different justifications that you have apparently made for Doloff's use of deadly force:

1. Keltner slapping Doloff (a slap does not justify deadly force in self-defense)
2. Keltner's presentation/use of pepper spray (Doloff drew and aimed his gun at Keltner before Keltner deployed pepper spray)
3. "Menacing" (still waiting for the evidence to support this one...)

At some point, it would be helpful if you would simply articulate your theory, using available evidence, that Doloff's use of deadly force was justified as self-defense. Because right now, it just appears that you're continually moving the goalposts, without ever articulating a theory.

“accosting and assaulting?” Nope. Not under Colorado law. Look it up. And just out of curiosity, what are you calling assault. You seem confident that Doloff actually made initiated contact with spray bro. Where is that evident?

 

[Hatin Since 87]

“accosting and assaulting?” Nope. Not under Colorado law. Look it up. And just out of curiosity, what are you calling assault. You seem confident that Doloff actually made initiated contact with spray bro. Where is that evident?

It’s evident to somebody, cause he’s been charged with 2nd degree murder.

D’oh

 

[KLB]

It’s evident to somebody, cause he’s been charged with 2nd degree murder.

D’oh

As we've seen in other places, being charged is a really low bar to cross.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

As we've seen in other places, being charged is a really low bar to cross.

Gotta be charged before anything. It’s a good start.