President Trump, First Lady Melania Test Positive for Coronavirus

[chipbennett]

So just out of curiosity, with 11 members of the administration, or related to it, infected; does that still show “leadership,” or does it illustrate the lack of seriousness with this admin concerning Covid19. Secondly, do you think the optics are good or bad overall based on the infection. Keep in mind, that some of the Chiefs off Staff are currently quarantined as well. Peripheral victims.

This is sophistry. There was never, ever, at all, at any point, any chance of stopping the spread of a novel virus. A virus is going to do what it will. It is doubtful that this virus could have been prevented from making its way through the presidential staff/administration at some point.

As for overall optics: I'm fairly sure that evaluation will be based entirely on one's own biases. However, the optics of the reaction of those who oppose the president to him getting - and overcoming - Covid are disastrous.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Why doesn't it look good for the president? Are you making the assumption that he was the source of the original infection?

No. Just that him catching it himself, after downplaying it repeatedly, isn’t a good look.

 

[jamil]

Why doesn't it look good for the president? Are you making the assumption that he was the source of the original infection?

No. Why would that be the logical conclusion? Trump and his whole staff make a point of not following covid protocols. And now many of them have covid. My point is about how that impacts people’s opinions about him. Trump can’t just count on his ardent supporters. There aren’t enough of them. He has to appeal outside of that. This doesn’t help because many of the people he needs to cross over, think that he brought this on himself, through a foolish dismissal of protocols.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

No. Just that him catching it himself, after downplaying it repeatedly, isn’t a good look.

No. Why would that be the logical conclusion? Trump and his whole staff make a point of not following covid protocols. And now many of them have covid. My point is about how that impacts people’s opinions about him. Trump can’t just count on his ardent supporters. There aren’t enough of them. He has to appeal outside of that. This doesn’t help because many of the people he needs to cross over, think that he brought this on himself, through a foolish dismissal of protocols.

Okay, I kind of see your points. But in order to avoid it himself (not spreading it to others), what other steps should he have taken? N95 mask? Washing his hands more often? Hiding in the basement with Joe?

 

[chipbennett]

No. Just that him catching it himself, after downplaying it repeatedly, isn’t a good look.

He caught it, he was treated for it, and he overcame it. His experience with it in no way contradicts anything he said about it prior to when he caught it.

 

[jamil]

Okay, I kind of see your points. But in order to avoid it himself (not spreading it to others), what other steps should he have taken? N95 mask? Washing his hands more often? Hiding in the basement with Joe?

Hyperbole aside, the optics isn’t an issue of him getting covid. It’s the appearance of how dismissive he was and that he didn’t appear to follow protocol himself.

I spoke with a friend a couple of days ago and his thoughts were that. though he didn’t wish harm on Trump, this has an air of Karma in that not making a point of not following protocol had the expected result. Of course the way he said it was more blunt. “Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.” Again, I’m talking about how it looks to others.

It’s politics. And you guys are proud that your guy isn’t a politician. Well that’s the benefit of being a politician, they work the optics. It’s a silly game. Regardless of what they think about it personally, politicians know they have to be seen observing the protocol in public. Politicians know it’s political theater.

 

[chipbennett]

No. Why would that be the logical conclusion? Trump and his whole staff make a point of not following covid protocols. And now many of them have covid. My point is about how that impacts people’s opinions about him. Trump can’t just count on his ardent supporters. There aren’t enough of them. He has to appeal outside of that. This doesn’t help because many of the people he needs to cross over, think that he brought this on himself, through a foolish dismissal of protocols.

Masks have never been a matter of preventing infection by the wearer, so that criticism is simply specious.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Masks have never been a matter of preventing infection by the wearer, so that criticism is simply specious.

That's kind of what I was getting at. Now if none of the people around Trump were following protocols, then there may be a valid concern. Trump wearing or not wearing a mask though, not so much.

 

[NKBJ]

And the joint chiefs are in quarantine.
For some reason this makes me think of General Buck Turgidson's phone call telling his girl friend "Hon, don't forget to say your prayers."

 

[jamil]

He caught it, he was treated for it, and he overcame it. His experience with it in no way contradicts anything he said about it prior to when he caught it.

That’s not the point. You’re implying “should” in an “is” argument. We’re talking about the optics of it. The optics are, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. That’s why politicians play political theater, so that their opponents don’t have easy optics to manipulate. I mean. At least make them work for it. At least make them find an “unnamed source”, to say Trump doesn’t take the virus seriously. At least pretend to take it seriously like Pelosi. Just don’t get caught like she did.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

That’s not the point. You’re implying “should” in an “is” argument. We’re talking about the optics of it. The optics are, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. That’s why politicians play political theater, so that their opponents don’t have easy optics to manipulate. I mean. At least make them work for it. At least make them find an “unnamed source”, to say Trump doesn’t take the virus seriously. At least pretend to take it seriously like Pelosi. Just don’t get caught like she did.

Aren't most of us (here on INGO) usually espousing personal responsibility and accepting the consequences of our choices? Seems like that's what Trump did. I get what you're saying about the optics to the opposition, but to those who feel that we are responsible for our choices, the optics look just fine. But that is also why I questioned whether you and Kut were viewing Trump as the one that infected all the others around him.

 

[chipbennett]

That’s not the point. You’re implying “should” in an “is” argument. We’re talking about the optics of it. The optics are, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. That’s why politicians play political theater, so that their opponents don’t have easy optics to manipulate. I mean. At least make them work for it. At least make them find an “unnamed source”, to say Trump doesn’t take the virus seriously. At least pretend to take it seriously like Pelosi. Just don’t get caught like she did.

Two thoughts on "optics":

1. The cold anger of people who oppose extra-constitutional authority being exercised in the form of mask mandates view the wearing of masks as representing control, conformance, and compliance. Trump not wearing a mask, then, is a positive in terms of "optics"

2. Social media is not reflective of society at-large, so either end of the "optics" debate as-seen on social media does not reflect the general thinking of society.

As for political theater: anyone genuinely interested in what Trump has actually done in response to the pandemic can easily find that information. As Trump said: the claim that he hasn't taken it seriously is a Democratic hoax.

 

[jamil]

Masks have never been a matter of preventing infection by the wearer, so that criticism is simply specious.

Irrelevant. I’m not saying that Trump wouldn’t have gotten sick had he wore a mask. I said Trump’s entire staff did not follow protocols<—plural. That means masks, social distancing. Who knows about frequent disinfecting. All of it. So there are two things about the optics around this. Trump has made many dismissive statements, which contributes to the poor optics. But the biggest impact would be the videos shown on the news of the nominating ceremony of Barrett. Zero protocols observed. Not keeping distance, hugging. Handshaking. And then 9 people or however many end up with covid.

That’s the optics. You can argue the efficacy of any of those protocols but my point has always been about how that looks to a potential Trump convert. These are moderates who believe that the protocols are needed. So your point about efficacy is irrelevant. This probably hurts Trump more than helps him. As I said above, he’d have been better off pretending to care like Nancy Pelosi, except without getting caught.

 

[jamil]

Aren't most of us (here on INGO) usually espousing personal responsibility and accepting the consequences of our choices? Seems like that's what Trump did. I get what you're saying about the optics to the opposition, but to those who feel that we are responsible for our choices, the optics look just fine. But that is also why I questioned whether you and Kut were viewing Trump as the one that infected all the others around him.

I answered the question Kut asked. Yes, it harms Trump because of the optics. I did not get into my personal opinions about mask efficacy, or how viruses spread, or personal responsibility. That wasn’t the question I answered. It harmed Trump in public opinion, absolutely. It did not harm public opinion among people who are stronger supporters of Trump.

 

[jamil]

Two thoughts on "optics":

1. The cold anger of people who oppose extra-constitutional authority being exercised in the form of mask mandates view the wearing of masks as representing control, conformance, and compliance. Trump not wearing a mask, then, is a positive in terms of "optics"

2. Social media is not reflective of society at-large, so either end of the "optics" debate as-seen on social media does not reflect the general thinking of society.

As for political theater: anyone genuinely interested in what Trump has actually done in response to the pandemic can easily find that information. As Trump said: the claim that he hasn't taken it seriously is a Democratic hoax.

Again, it does not harm Trump among his supporters. It has harmed Trump among anyone who thinks the protocols—again, not just masks, but including masks—effectively prevent spread. I am not contending that it hurt Trump’s standing among rabid TDS ideologues. I don’t think the unfavorable scale goes any lower than their current opinion.

 

[Jaybird1980]

Again, it does not harm Trump among his supporters. It has harmed Trump among anyone who thinks the protocols—again, not just masks, but including masks—effectively prevent spread. I am not contending that it hurt Trump’s standing among rabid TDS ideologues. I don’t think the unfavorable scale goes any lower than their current opinion.

I agree with you that it probably is bad optics for people that believe following protocol will prevent it. To those people I would point out that plenty of people in the medical field caught this, and they follow very strict protocol. Anyone blaming Trump for catching a virus that is doing what viruses do is nonsense as far as I'm concerned.

 

[jamil]

I agree with you that it probably is bad optics for people that believe following protocol will prevent it. To those people I would point out that plenty of people in the medical field caught this, and they follow very strict protocol. Anyone blaming Trump for catching a virus that is doing what viruses do is nonsense as far as I'm concerned.

You can take steps that make it less likely to happen to you on a given day. You could do everything you did before this, with out any precautions, and you'll probability that the virus could spread to you. Or you could eliminate some of those ways, reducing your probability of getting it on a given day. That is self evident. Of course you can't eliminate all the ways you might possibly get it, and even if you followed all the protocol precisely, you could still get it.

Medical professionals catch it despite protocols because they're exposed to it much more than most people. There's a medical professional in my extended family who just got it. I'm sure she followed the protocols and got it anyway. She has a much higher probability of getting it even if we weren't talking about any protocols. And following them does reduce that probability. It doesn't eliminate it.

Okay, so it your contention that they all had the same probability of spreading covid without following the protocols as if they had? So, social distancing, handwashing, disinfecting, mask wearing. Same probability either way?

 

[Jaybird1980]

You can take steps that make it less likely to happen to you on a given day. You could do everything you did before this, with out any precautions, and you'll probability that the virus could spread to you. Or you could eliminate some of those ways, reducing your probability of getting it on a given day. That is self evident. Of course you can't eliminate all the ways you might possibly get it, and even if you followed all the protocol precisely, you could still get it.

Medical professionals catch it despite protocols because they're exposed to it much more than most people. There's a medical professional in my extended family who just got it. I'm sure she followed the protocols and got it anyway. She has a much higher probability of getting it even if we weren't talking about any protocols. And following them does reduce that probability. It doesn't eliminate it.

Okay, so it your contention that they all had the same probability of spreading covid without following the protocols as if they had? So, social distancing, handwashing, disinfecting, mask wearing. Same probability either way?

No, its my opinion that the President and colleagues have duties to perform that will put them at a higher exposure rate than people like me. It may not be as high of an exposure rate as a medical professional, I just used that example to show that protocols don't guarantee anything.

 

[chipbennett]

Again, it does not harm Trump among his supporters. It has harmed Trump among anyone who thinks the protocols—again, not just masks, but including masks—effectively prevent spread. I am not contending that it hurt Trump’s standing among rabid TDS ideologues. I don’t think the unfavorable scale goes any lower than their current opinion.

I assume you have some evidence for this assertion? Or are you merely stating it as an inherent presumption?

 

[hoosierdoc]

OMG! He's not fully recovered from a 10+ day illness in seven days!

I am curious if he's on blood thinners. Huge risk of clotting such as stroke and pulmonary embolism with this.

I find it freaking hilarious that humans are so damned arrogant to think we can change what a respiratory illness will do in a population, just as we claim to be able to change the earth's temperature.

TRUMP WAS NOT FOLLOWING SOCIAL DISTANCING!!!!! Right... he's running a country, not a coffee shop