Question regarding "mah rights"

[Dundee]

Or what is more likely, someone notices I’m carrying concealed calls police and they ask to see my ID. I realize the Pinner ruling, but if Police insist, what is likely to happen if I start asking am I being detained. I’m guessing escalation of the situation. But I would like to see this through the eyes of the police.

 

[eldirector]

Actually, in most of the state, I suspect dispatch/911 would ask "But, is (s)he doing anything ILLEGAL?" Might still send an officer, but once again, if there is nothing actually illegal going on, I suspect (s)he would just roll by, take a gander, and get back to their real job.

 

[2A_Tom]

Or what is more likely, someone notices I’m carrying concealed calls police and they ask to see my ID. I realize the Pinner ruling, but if Police insist, what is likely to happen if I start asking am I being detained. I’m guessing escalation of the situation. But I would like to see this through the eyes of the police.

Did you watch the video that Kirk posted?

 

[Dundee]

Yes, And I know who Kirk is. I am no lawyer but I would like to hear from a someone with a law enforcement background. If eldirector is, OK. However as much as I respect Kirk’s opinion, if I respond in any of the cavalier ways suggested I believe the situation would quickly escalate. It’s pretty easy to talk tough on a forum. How to handle this in the real world is valuable intell and could make the difference between a big waste of time and money or walking away.

 

[hpclayto]

Yes, And I know who Kirk is. I am no lawyer but I would like to hear from a someone with a law enforcement background. If eldirector is, OK. However as much as I respect Kirk’s opinion, if I respond in any of the cavalier ways suggested I believe the situation would quickly escalate. It’s pretty easy to talk tough on a forum. How to handle this in the real world is valuable intell and could make the difference between a big waste of time and money or walking away.

It's going to depend totally on the officer. Me personally, I'm probably not going to bother even making contact with someone carrying unless I have reason to believe that something else is going on. I'm pro gun and 2A, some cops are not. I'm (fairly) well versed in carry laws and know what I can/can't do. Some cops are not. My advice would be to comply with the request, if you're upset with how things were handled contact the department afterwards and address your complaint(s). The place to argue about something is in court, not on the street or the side of the road. Depending on the officer and their ego, you may end up getting locked up if the situation escalates greatly. Not saying that the arrest would hold up in court (although it very well could as every jurisdiction and prosecutor has their own interpretation of what the law means) but you would still have to go through the hassle. Just my .

 

[Dundee]

It's going to depend totally on the officer. Me personally, I'm probably not going to bother even making contact with someone carrying unless I have reason to believe that something else is going on. I'm pro gun and 2A, some cops are not. I'm (fairly) well versed in carry laws and know what I can/can't do. Some cops are not. My advice would be to comply with the request, if you're upset with how things were handled contact the department afterwards and address your complaint(s). The place to argue about something is in court, not on the street or the side of the road. Depending on the officer and their ego, you may end up getting locked up if the situation escalates greatly. Not saying that the arrest would hold up in court (although it very well could as every jurisdiction and prosecutor has their own interpretation of what the law means) but you would still have to go through the hassle. Just my .

Thank you!

 

[2A_Tom]

Yes, And I know who Kirk is. I am no lawyer but I would like to hear from a someone with a law enforcement background. If eldirector is, OK. However as much as I respect Kirk’s opinion, if I respond in any of the cavalier ways suggested I believe the situation would quickly escalate. It’s pretty easy to talk tough on a forum. How to handle this in the real world is valuable intell and could make the difference between a big waste of time and money or walking away.

[video=youtube;1n1BHJs5V5c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n1BHJs5V5c[/video]

I made a transcript of the video that Kirk posted. It is not perfect because I could not heat the cavalier responses of the civillian.

Officer: How are you
Civilian: Fine. How are you?
O: Can I talk to you for a minute?
O:What's the camera for? Your legal rights?
O:You know you got a legal right to carry that. I just... you're freakin' people out that's what's happening. Just askin'... you carrying to shoot for practice or what?
C:
O; You care not to speak?
C:
O:Officer Evans with the Blacksburg Police Department. You just care not to speak?
C:
O: You are free to leave bud. Go ahead.
C: have a nice day sir. Walks away calmly. The next thing said is Have a nice day, but I cannot tell if it is the officer or the civilian.

 

[Dundee]

[video=youtube;1n1BHJs5V5c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n1BHJs5V5c[/video]

I made a transcript of the video that Kirk posted. It is not perfect because I could not heat the cavalier responses of the civillian.

Officer: How are you
Civilian: Fine. How are you?
O: Can I talk to you for a minute?
O:What's the camera for? Your legal rights?
O:You know you got a legal right to carry that. I just... you're freakin' people out that's what's happening. Just askin'... you carrying to shoot for practice or what?
C:
O; You care not to speak?
C:
O:Officer Evans with the Blacksburg Police Department. You just care not to speak?
C:
O: You are free to leave bud. Go ahead.
C: have a nice day sir. Walks away calmly. The next thing said is Have a nice day, but I cannot tell if it is the officer or the civilian.

Said I watched it. I’m not deaf, but thanks for transcribing for those who are. Again, I appreciate hpclayto’s response

 

[2A_Tom]

As i sit here I cannot understand what you said about remarks and escalation. That is why I went back and watched it. I thought I had missed something.

I have had interactions with several officers in NWI When I first started OC. They were ignorant of IC and received a free education.

There are threads on INGO that I could PM you but I will not share in open forum because Others have seen them before.

 

[Dundee]

As i sit here I cannot understand what you said about remarks and escalation. That is why I went back and watched it. I thought I had missed something.

I have had interactions with several officers in NWI When I first started OC. They were ignorant of IC and received a free education.

There are threads on INGO that I could PM you but I will not share in open forum because Others have seen them before.

OK, I get that. Please feel free to PM me. I’ll read them.

 

[Captaincrunk]

They're always allowed to ask for ID but you aren't always required to provide these things.

 

[actaeon277]

Different officers will react.. differently.

 

[jbombelli]

Different officers will react.. differently.

And some officers, their departments, and municipalities end up on the losing end of lawsuits.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I have not been witness to an arrest, so I’ve not been in a situation where I’ve been recording a situation. But if I was and am asked by an officer for ID, what is the likely response of the officer if I respond like what has been suggested in these posts? I’m guessing escalation of the situation, but I’ve not been in the officer’s shoes. So, what is your opinion on best course of action?

Depends. If I really want to ID you, I probably can even if I never see your ID if you aren't from out of state. It just depends on how much time and effort I'm willing to spend.

There is always the chance the situation will escalate, though. I learned about planting your flag on every hill in the Army. Sometimes even when you're right and the sergeant was wrong, it'll bite you in the butt later. These days, I look at every potential conflict through the same lens now, no matter if it's a supervisor at work or a loud drunk at a restaurant. Is the potential escalation worth whatever I'm considering? That's what you have to ask yourself.

 

[rhino]

Would it be wrong to have photocopies of your DL with the following text ready to distribute?

Here's my ID. As we both know, I am not required to present it to you because you do not have reasonable suspicion that I have committed a crime or an infraction (as per the Pinner decision) and I know with certainty that I have not. However, you're just so persistent with your repeated requests that it's clear that you really, really want to see my ID, so here it is. Please note that while I am indulging you as a generous and voluntary act of kindness so that your aneurysm won't rupture during the inevitable Daffy Duck vs. Bugs Bunny negotiations that will ensue, I am in no way interested in a romantic relationship with you because you're a dude and so am I. If you have a cute sister, we may be able to work something out.

PS I respectfully urge you to re-evaluate your desire to persist in obtaining ID when someone is not legally required to provide it and clearly chooses to exercise their right. It's not personal, so you shouldn't take it that way. It will save you time, improve your relationship with the community you serve (who also appreciates your service), and will reduce the chances of that aneurysm causing a problem.​

 

[Dundee]

Depends. If I really want to ID you, I probably can even if I never see your ID if you aren't from out of state. It just depends on how much time and effort I'm willing to spend.

There is always the chance the situation will escalate, though. I learned about planting your flag on every hill in the Army. Sometimes even when you're right and the sergeant was wrong, it'll bite you in the butt later. These days, I look at every potential conflict through the same lens now, no matter if it's a supervisor at work or a loud drunk at a restaurant. Is the potential escalation worth whatever I'm considering? That's what you have to ask yourself.

While I realize it’s not intended to go over an IC/OC issue with police, is what you describe above some of what the class you are holding will go over?

 

[2A_Tom]

I sure hope not. I never intend to get into a DGU situation with a Cop.

 

[Slawburger]

Look for Kirk Freeman's next gripping novel, "The Sirens of Wal-Mart".

I've been to Wal-Mart, there are no Sirens in that part of the ocean.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

While I realize it’s not intended to go over an IC/OC issue with police, is what you describe above some of what the class you are holding will go over?

No, but feel free to ask during a break. Mostly in lvl 2, we do talk about post-shooting which includes dealing with 911 and police response.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Yes, And I know who Kirk is. I am no lawyer but I would like to hear from a someone with a law enforcement background.

I am Kirk and I have a law enforcement background.