Really am I missing something?

[CPT Nervous]

Indeed I started to type a response and deleted it. Not worth the effort.

So why did you respond?

 

[Trapper Jim]

Was on a firearms review website the other day, and they were promoting some specific brand of targets with graphics of human organs and a KILL ZONE area of the target. Seems like that has bad idea written all over it? Seriously I can not imagine how these would not have unintended consequences if it ever came up. Like yes your honor I train regularly, what kind of targets do you use? Well I use kill zone targets! Seems like somebody did not think this through? As far as I could tell they were not novelty targets.

I wasn't going to post on this thread but couldn't resist. That's the neat thing about being a grumpy old retired man is that can say how it is. Ingo can bring some enlighting ideas to front. These targets are just another way that some Death Merchant preys upon shooters pocket books. The notion that anyone with the very best of skill set should or could control his shot placement with such precision is pure hogwash. Imagine, SWAB finds himself in self defense situation. His hand reaches toward his Fobus as he is planning his presentation. Since the Death Merchant has enabled the SWAB that there is plenty of time in this action, SWAB starts scouting where the internal organs are on this perp. Maybe there is enough time to hack the perps medical records to maybe go for the kidney as his last blood test indicated a weakness. Or perhaps the perp has a pacemaker that the SWAB can surgically remove it with a 147GR projectile and preserve the perps organs to be rewarded to the next one on the Donor list? Now back to the Defensive Action. While the SWAB is trying to make his presentation and crapping his pants, the imitation carhartt that is covering up the organ picture is causing some confusion. Darn he says, I wish I had Superman XRay vision!

I am not sure what happened to the real world, but it seems to me that instead of chasing this rainbow of a false sense of security we concentrate on conventional targets and lots of practice with the right fundamentals and if God Forbid you are in a shooting action, your Conditioned Response will favor your side.

Precision Targets (Bullseye)
COM Targets (Cardboard)
Reactive Targets (Steel)

Fundamentals

Practice

Carry Well

 

[Hookeye]

Most people suck at thinking.
Most people suck in action.
Most people suck at shooting.

But not everybody.

 

[rhino]

I wasn't going to post on this thread but couldn't resist. That's the neat thing about being a grumpy old retired man is that can say how it is. Ingo can bring some enlighting ideas to front. These targets are just another way that some Death Merchant preys upon shooters pocket books. The notion that anyone with the very best of skill set should or could control his shot placement with such precision is pure hogwash. Imagine, SWAB finds himself in self defense situation. His hand reaches toward his Fobus as he is planning his presentation. Since the Death Merchant has enabled the SWAB that there is plenty of time in this action, SWAB starts scouting where the internal organs are on this perp. Maybe there is enough time to hack the perps medical records to maybe go for the kidney as his last blood test indicated a weakness. Or perhaps the perp has a pacemaker that the SWAB can surgically remove it with a 147GR projectile and preserve the perps organs to be rewarded to the next one on the Donor list? Now back to the Defensive Action. While the SWAB is trying to make his presentation and crapping his pants, the imitation carhartt that is covering up the organ picture is causing some confusion. Darn he says, I wish I had Superman XRay vision!

I am not sure what happened to the real world, but it seems to me that instead of chasing this rainbow of a false sense of security we concentrate on conventional targets and lots of practice with the right fundamentals and if God Forbid you are in a shooting action, your Conditioned Response will favor your side.

Precision Targets (Bullseye)
COM Targets (Cardboard)
Reactive Targets (Steel)

Fundamentals

Practice

Carry Well

I submit that the "detail" of those targets are primarily used in legitimate training for familiarization with anatomy as well as assessment of hits after a drill. Consider the targets that Kyle Lamb uses. On one side, you can see the silhouette from most distances, but you can't really discern the details of the cartoon anatomy unless you're pretty close. I'm not inside his head, but were I using that target, the boxes on the silhouette would be my guides for shot placement (much like the gross external features of someone attacking you while wearing clothing might) and the diagram would help me evaluate my work after I was done.

 

[Ggreen]

I wasn't going to post on this thread but couldn't resist. That's the neat thing about being a grumpy old retired man is that can say how it is. Ingo can bring some enlighting ideas to front. These targets are just another way that some Death Merchant preys upon shooters pocket books. The notion that anyone with the very best of skill set should or could control his shot placement with such precision is pure hogwash. Imagine, SWAB finds himself in self defense situation. His hand reaches toward his Fobus as he is planning his presentation. Since the Death Merchant has enabled the SWAB that there is plenty of time in this action, SWAB starts scouting where the internal organs are on this perp. Maybe there is enough time to hack the perps medical records to maybe go for the kidney as his last blood test indicated a weakness. Or perhaps the perp has a pacemaker that the SWAB can surgically remove it with a 147GR projectile and preserve the perps organs to be rewarded to the next one on the Donor list? Now back to the Defensive Action. While the SWAB is trying to make his presentation and crapping his pants, the imitation carhartt that is covering up the organ picture is causing some confusion. Darn he says, I wish I had Superman XRay vision!

I am not sure what happened to the real world, but it seems to me that instead of chasing this rainbow of a false sense of security we concentrate on conventional targets and lots of practice with the right fundamentals and if God Forbid you are in a shooting action, your Conditioned Response will favor your side.

Precision Targets (Bullseye)
COM Targets (Cardboard)
Reactive Targets (Steel)

Fundamentals

Practice

Carry Well

It's about knowing where to shoot quickly. It doesn't matter if you can pick an ant off a log at 30 paces, if you don't know where to hit to stop a target effectively and quickly. your going to get stabbed when they charge you after you focus on the fundamentals of target shooting. Defensive shooting is a whole other ball game.

 

[Lex Concord]

Anyone carrying should practice killshots. I see no problem here. We don't carry for spur of the moment uspsa matches or impromptu saloon room gun twirling. we carry to [strike]kill[/strike] stop a threat.

FIFY - subtle but important difference, in my mind.

 

[Lex Concord]

Precisely applied force is just that. Applied precisely, matters not what you practice on. What matters is that you hit where you aim. If I can hit a bottlecap at 100 yds, imagining that bottlecap on a perps chest or head gets the desired result.

Agreed 100%. The problem the target purports to solve, however, is not your precision, but imagining that bottlecap in the appropriate location on the perp's head or chest.

If I had to guess, you're good to go, but I could see where folks could benefit.

 

[Ggreen]

FIFY - subtle but important difference, in my mind.

If I'm pulling a trigger on a living being, I'm going for a kill period. At the point that an event has escalated to gunplay death is the only acceptable level of stop.

 

[Vigilant]

I wasn't going to post on this thread but couldn't resist. That's the neat thing about being a grumpy old retired man is that can say how it is. Ingo can bring some enlighting ideas to front. These targets are just another way that some Death Merchant preys upon shooters pocket books. The notion that anyone with the very best of skill set should or could control his shot placement with such precision is pure hogwash. Imagine, SWAB finds himself in self defense situation. His hand reaches toward his Fobus as he is planning his presentation. Since the Death Merchant has enabled the SWAB that there is plenty of time in this action, SWAB starts scouting where the internal organs are on this perp. Maybe there is enough time to hack the perps medical records to maybe go for the kidney as his last blood test indicated a weakness. Or perhaps the perp has a pacemaker that the SWAB can surgically remove it with a 147GR projectile and preserve the perps organs to be rewarded to the next one on the Donor list? Now back to the Defensive Action. While the SWAB is trying to make his presentation and crapping his pants, the imitation carhartt that is covering up the organ picture is causing some confusion. Darn he says, I wish I had Superman XRay vision!

I am not sure what happened to the real world, but it seems to me that instead of chasing this rainbow of a false sense of security we concentrate on conventional targets and lots of practice with the right fundamentals and if God Forbid you are in a shooting action, your Conditioned Response will favor your side.

Precision Targets (Bullseye)
COM Targets (Cardboard)
Reactive Targets (Steel)

Fundamentals

Practice

Carry Well

You forgot hard wood and blued steel, no more than one shot every _ seconds, not drawing from your holster?

 

[RND]

Was on a firearms review website the other day, and they were promoting some specific brand of targets with graphics of human organs and a KILL ZONE area of the target. Seems like that has bad idea written all over it? Seriously I can not imagine how these would not have unintended consequences if it ever came up. Like yes your honor I train regularly, what kind of targets do you use? Well I use kill zone targets! Seems like somebody did not think this through? As far as I could tell they were not novelty targets.

Speaking of thinking, you are OVER-
thinking.

 

[rhino]

Agreed 100%. The problem the target purports to solve, however, is not your precision, but imagining that bottlecap in the appropriate location on the perp's head or chest.

If I had to guess, you're good to go, but I could see where folks could benefit.

Thank you for succinctly stating that! I was apparently failing to make the same point.

 

[Karl-just-Karl]

So, no one here has ever taken a CPR/first-aid course from the red cross?

You know that spot where you do chest compressions right between the nipples? Shoot there.

Although, with some folks a shot between the nipples might just leave'em gut shot.

 

[STAGE 2]

According to Andrew Branca’s book and podcast, anything can be used against you in court.

I’d be wary about someone who makes a living selling books and “expert consults” on this issue. Particularly someone who appears to be pretty vague on his resume. Massad Ayoob has tried to sell this line of fear albeit with using home rolled loads for self defense. In short, there has never been someone who was convicted of an otherwise good shoot because of the ammo he used or the targets he practiced at. The simple answer is because none of those things go to any element of the crime the prosecution needs to prove. Moreover, with all due respect to Mr. Branca, the prosecution does not get to use “anything” against you, and a competent defense attorney should be able to deal with this with a pre-trial motion. But again, this information probably wouldnt sell as many books.

Bottom line, it’s a non-issue.

 

[2A_Tom]

 

[Joniki]

So, no one here has ever taken a CPR/first-aid course from the red cross?

You know that spot where you do chest compressions right between the nipples? Shoot there.

Although, with some folks a shot between the nipples might just leave'em gut shot.

Or shot in the knee depending on how long gravity has been a pulling...

 

[nonobaddog]

Of course it is good to know general anatomy. It seems strange that people old enough to shoot handguns don't already know general anatomy well enough to aim at important stuff. That is something pretty basic. But if you feel you need a refresher every time you put up a target that is fine too. Normally knowledge retention is better than that.

If you go elk hunting you better know the general anatomy of an elk well enough to know where he keeps his heart. But don't expect it to be painted on his fur.

 

[2A_Tom]

I know general anatomy for first aid not for shooting

Two to the center of mass. If that does not stop the threat then one, two, three or whatever it takes to get a head shot on a still moving target.

 

[Dead Duck]

I use to aim for the organs.....
until I watched my first John Wick movie.

 

[rhino]

Of course it is good to know general anatomy. It seems strange that people old enough to shoot handguns don't already know general anatomy well enough to aim at important stuff. That is something pretty basic. But if you feel you need a refresher every time you put up a target that is fine too. Normally knowledge retention is better than that.

If you go elk hunting you better know the general anatomy of an elk well enough to know where he keeps his heart. But don't expect it to be painted on his fur.

The general public and a significant number of shooting students cannot estimate the location of the medulla oblongata (the only part of human anatomy that is a guaranteed stop if you destroy it). Similarly, few have any idea where the actually skeletal components known as the "pelvic girdle" are located, yet they have an intent to shoot that area in a defensive situation.

It's not strange at all when you have been present when people really don't know much about human anatomy. The assume they do, but most don't.

Head shot? Which parts of the head are more heavily armored? Which parts should you target and why? How about if you're not aiming at the face? People really don't know those things until someone gets them to realize what they don't know, and then helps them learn. Targets like what Kyle Lamb uses are very helpful in that regard.

Too many people are taught or believe that they should shoot to "center of mass," which is simply wrong unless that's the best or only option you have. Plus, few seem to understand where the center of mass of a human is located.

 

[nonobaddog]

Yes, it certainly can be made more complicated than necessary.