Red flag orders - the left has found a magic bullet against guns

[HoughMade]

This, like so many other balancing of rights issues, is a tough call. Our systems are made of people, and people, all people, are imperfect and fallible.

It was so much easier when I was younger, and saw things in fewer shades of gray.

Yep. When people are involved, it's tough to design a system that will always work correctly. Maybe the balance means no "red flag" law. Maybe it means a more stringent standard for temporary confiscation with every burden on the State with built-in deadlines and automatic penalties for not following them.

Don't know. No one asked me to draft one.

 

[Herr Vogel]

I'm just going to leave this here. (crossposted from the NRA thread)

http://https://www.nraila.org/articles/20181218/nra-ilas-chris-w-cox-releases-statement-on-school-safety-report

"Importantly, the commission expressly rejected age limitations on firearm purchases, which as the report explains in detail, have no real impact on crime. Finally, we appreciate President Trump’s support for keeping firearms out of the hands of those who have been adjudicated by a court to be a danger to themselves or others in the form of state Extreme Risk Protection Orders -- provided they include strong due process protections, require mental health treatment, and include penalties against those who file frivolous charges to harass law-abiding citizens. The recommendations in the commission report will go a long way towards preventing violence and making children safer in our schools.” (emphasis added)

 

[Expat]

In theory (putting aside how exactly you prove it), if we knew that someone was threatening imminent violence or self-harm, taking away the means to inflict immediately inflict that harm is justified.

But if that is the case and can be demonstrated to some degree of legal certainty, why just come and grab my guns? Shouldn't I be put under one of those 72 hour holds for evaluation. Is leaving me at home with my kerosene, fertilizer, etc. a good idea?

 

[Sigblitz]

The Indiana law talked about taking guns from a dangerous individual. I know this has already been pointed out, but the uncle is not the dangerous individual. I wonder if he can pass a background check now to get a gun.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Yep. When people are involved, it's tough to design a system that will always work correctly. Maybe the balance means no "red flag" law. Maybe it means a more stringent standard for temporary confiscation with every burden on the State with built-in deadlines and automatic penalties for not following them.

Don't know. No one asked me to draft one.

And some sort of method for compensating owners for loss and/or damages to property while in the state's care.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

What is the fundamental difference between calling the police and saying, "My neighbor keeps giving me dirty looks and shouting profanities at me when he sees me outside. I'm afraid he's going to hurt me" and calling the police and saying, "My neighbor has a lot of guns and I often hear him shouting obscenities in his garage. I'm afraid he's going to get mad enough to shoot someone"?

Presumably only one of these would result in the neighbor's property being confiscated and him being sent to jail. Let's say that in the first example it's the same neighbor, and he does own a lot of guns, but you don't know that, so you don't mention it when you call the police.

Or another example... a woman calls the police and says, "My neighbor is a big strong man. I'm afraid he may try to rape me." Probably not going to be acted upon without some kind of evidence supporting her fears. Shouldn't the same hold true for someone calling the police because their neighbor has guns (and guns are scary)?

 

[Ark]

What is the fundamental difference between calling the police and saying, "My neighbor keeps giving me dirty looks and shouting profanities at me when he sees me outside. I'm afraid he's going to hurt me" and calling the police and saying, "My neighbor has a lot of guns and I often hear him shouting obscenities in his garage. I'm afraid he's going to get mad enough to shoot someone"?

Presumably only one of these would result in the neighbor's property being confiscated and him being sent to jail. Let's say that in the first example it's the same neighbor, and he does own a lot of guns, but you don't know that, so you don't mention it when you call the police.

They both will. No judge is willing to roll the dice and risk the news reporting that they denied an order and "enabled gun violence". Judges are only incentivized to rubber-stamp every order because there is no political blowback for confiscating guns.

 

[JettaKnight]

Didn't we just go over what does and does not trigger red flags in Indiana in the other thread?


Let's discuss code reds instead.

 

[JettaKnight]

They both will. No judge is willing to roll the dice and risk the news reporting that they denied an order and "enabled gun violence". Judges are only incentivized to rubber-stamp every order because there is no political blowback for confiscating guns.

You keep making these statements in this thread.... Is there some factual basis for this bold assertion?

 

[miguel]

Exactly. As long as the gun owners community have irresponsible members we will continue to get shafted at every turn.

Just like illegal immigrants...

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Didn't we just go over what does and does not trigger red flags in Indiana in the other thread?


Let's discuss code reds instead.

Not a big fan of Code Reds, but I do like Baja Blast and Voltage.

 

[actaeon277]

Yeah, somethings either wrong in the execution of this or wrong in the reporting. I'm not ready to make a determination.


If the kids were a credible threat, why not lock them up, instead of locking up the uncle's guns?

What's the uncle's background? Is he a legit gun owner or a shady dude who would be willing to be complicate? I dunno.


From this one article it appears he's getting the shaft...



Probably the truest statement in the thread.

Lanza's Mom was the irresponsible member that precipitated this.

 

[actaeon277]

Of course, this is no news to us here on INGO, and it's certainly preaching to the choir but guns are responded to differently than any other object kids get a hold of and use dangerously. No one is calling for keys to locked up and stored safely away from kids. No one is calling for cars to be removed from families whose family members might be dangerous.

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/l...es-after-high-speed-pursuit-ends/95-611371314

That drives me crazy. I point it out to people, and they say "that's different".
No.
It isn't.
It's just that they would be affected by cars and knives. So they care about that.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

That drives me crazy. I point it out to people, and they say "that's different".
No.
It isn't.
It's just that they would be affected by cars and knives. So they care about that.

Perception is reality. Like you say, most have never made that logical extension and will support their stance with such feeble reasoning. It's good to keep reminding them though. Sometimes people do change their minds.

 

[Trigger Time]

I dont like pre-policing or laws that prosecute people before the actual crime has been committed. I also do not like entrapment bylaw enforcement and we see lots of it. Even SOME cops I like and trust seem completely fine with a lot of it. That's disturbing to me.
Bad **** happens. People are killed by insane people. Car wrecks happen too.
I believe these laws are an infringement on not only gun rights but also peoples right to privacy. Who here wants a bunch of local and not local nosey cops and other non sworn investigators coming Into your home and digging through EVERYTHING you own that's private and personal and submitting it into evidence and putting it on display for the world to see not to mention the loose lips of the cops and investigators that came in, and court employees, telling all of their friends and family about the latest bust they saw in the news.
All the time though I see people in the news who had made constant violent threats and acted out but nothing was done because "our hands were tied" and then they go kill a bunch of people. If you say you are going to kill someone then you CAN and should go to jail. I understand a lot of the time it's not tue police officers fault its the courts fault for either not bringing charges or for slapping their hand. But in the same cases where a guy just has a lot of guns they throw the book at him. I'm NOT referencing the ingo member who got jacked up for allegedly making threats.
When it comes to being a gun owner there is a double standard that we all need to be aware of. Really think twice before you say something and for goodness sakes dont put gun stickers on your car or house. I know a lot of you do and it's your business but I promise its gonna put you in a bind one day. Maybe even get your **** broke into. These anti gunners are LUNATICS who will call 911 and lie about you because they hate guns and you that much.
Good luck. And store a couple of your guns outside of your own property and maybe with someone you trust if you're afraid to bury it.

They will be coming for our guns one day door to door, I have zero doubts about it.

 

[Lex Concord]

You better read the article and reread my posts. And I already know what I have to do if that ever happens to me.

Per your (ahem) "request", I re-read the article (third time) and all of your posts in this thread.

While I would agree, it's not cause for "blaze of glory" time, I still fail to see how the circumstances, as described in the article linked in the OP (and summarized in my post), warrant the action taken to confiscate the property of Uncle X?

What, exactly, are you suggesting I'm missing here?

 

[HubertGummer]

They will be coming for our guns one day door to door, I have zero doubts about it.

Won't matter. After the majority of gun owners lose their guns thanks to these red flag laws, there won't be enough armed people left to effectively resist.

 

[Doublehelix]

@Trigger Time:

I love your posts, you always have something great to say, but please use paragraph spaces, your posts are so difficult to read with all of the text jumbled together like that.

It becomes one big mass of letters that is hard for my old eyes to focus on. Thank you!

 

[Sigblitz]

Not a big fan of Code Reds, but I do like Baja Blast and Voltage.

This went over my head yesterday.

 

[Sigblitz]