Saps, blackjacks, "coin purses", etc...

[jamstutz]

huh, he said coin purse, lol

Todd Foster Coin Sap

 

[Disposable Heart]

The citing reference you gave was a little off so it complicated the search:


IC 35-47-5-3, concerning the prohibition of exposing or offering knucks, a sling-shot or a billy for sale, was repealed by P.L.269-1995, § 10, effective July 1, 1995.

Damn, I dont have a Lexis account to view the repeal.

Am I to understand that they are legal then? (as long as one probably has a carry permit just in case)?

 

[CarmelHP]

The repealed law says simply:

§ 35-47-5-3. Exposing or offering knucks, sling-shot or billy for sale prohibited
It is a Class C infraction for a person to expose or offer for sale any knucks, sling-shot, or billy.

HISTORY: IC 35-47-5-3, as added by P.L.311-1983, § 32.

The repeal says simply "IC 35-47-5-3 is repealed." You're not missing anything. Apparently, only the sale was ever illegal, not possession. At least there's nothing I can find in the criminal statutes about it, but I haven't done an exhaustive search. Also, the "sling-shot" referred to is most likely a mistaken rendering of "slung-shot."

 

[cosermann]

A few sources (for fun and amusement):

Washington Police Supply (look under Impact weapons ==> Other )
Results for Personal Defense & Safety
Red Diamond Uniform & Police Supply, Inc. - Product Catalog
Nightsticks & Batons
Fixed Length Batons at CopsPlus
Boston Leather Search Page
Leather Slappers
Amazon.com: Flexible Leather Billy Club: Sports & Outdoors (even Amazon.com!)
and last, but not least,
http://www.jacksandsaps.com/ (expensive)

(Boston leather has a dealer locator, btw. Many dealers in Indiana.)

 

[oldfb]

"umm your honor, these lead filled leather gloves are for my arthritis!"

All kidding aside I would be willing to bet using a sap or any other object could be used as an Unlawful Use of Weapon charge unless it was in self defense. Illinois one guy had a deadly weapon charge for hitting a guy with an ashtray. I think it had something to do with "intent" instead of what actually was in his hand;
still waiting for leo to weigh in on this with any fed laws?

 

[dross]

IC 35-47-5-13
Unlawful use of body armor
Sec. 13. (a) As used in this section, "body armor" means bullet resistant metal or other material worn by a person to provide protection from weapons or bodily injury.
(b) A person who knowingly or intentionally uses body armor while committing a felony commits unlawful use of body armor, a Class D felony.
As added by P.L.227-1996, SEC.1.


This part is just hilarious .... It's unlawful to use body armor while committing a crime?

Criminal thinking.... "Well, if I get arrested, I only want to be charged with armed robbery, so I won't wear body armor..."

hahahahaha!

The point is not to deter - it's to have another thing to charge someone with, so they can get you to plea bargain. It's almost impossible to commit just one crime. They pile on statutes so they can have you facing many years so it's easy to get you to plea bargain down to where they get a conviction and you don't risk lots of time in jail.

 

[El Cazador]

That first link on blackjacks and saps was interesting. He didn't say much on that "Iron Claw" weapon, except they were outlawed by PD's and LEA's some time ago. Anyone know how and when they were used? The one picture there was of one, I didn't see any obvious way to use it.

 

[cosermann]

This thread's been dormant a while. Perhaps too long!

Came across this ARR on a recent short impact weapons class that I thought would go well here (if you notice down in the "tidbits" section of the article there's a link to the "LAMB method", from which a PDF copy is available - well worth a read - classic Ayoob with a forward by Bill Jordan):

https://www.growingupguns.com/2018/08/31/aar-point-driven-training-saps-and-jacks-2018/

 

[Coach]

I did see a couple of interesting things in the tidbits.

 

[MCgrease08]

TIDBITS

Don’t waste your money on a ‘coin purse’ sap. Everyone (TSA, cops, etc) knows what it is, and coins aren’t really dense enough to add meaningful weight for your strikes.

I really have to disagree with this. I love my Foster coin sap, and when it's stuffed full it's plenty dense and heavy enough to do damage.

Also, I have traveled with it plenty of times. TSA and security guards have never given me a second look or denied entry. I have carried it on airplanes, into clubs, concerts, sporting events and all manner of weapons free zones.

I promise that would not be possible to do with a true sap or blackjack.

 

[rhino]

I really have to disagree with this. I love my Foster coin sap, and when it's stuffed full it's plenty dense and heavy enough to do damage.

Also, I have traveled with it plenty of times. TSA and security guards have never given me a second look or denied entry. I have carried it on airplanes, into clubs, concerts, sporting events and all manner of weapons free zones.

I promise that would not be possible to do with a true sap or blackjack.

It's kind of like vests and cargo pants. Gun culture people associate those with carrying guns and many like to use phrases like "it screams I'm carrying a gun," but they have no evidence to back it up.

People who don't think about guns on a daily basis just don't seem to make any connection, especially with something as common as cargo pants. I used to wear a vest a lot for concealment and I got a significant number of "how's the fishing" comments and an occasional discussion about photography. Zero times has someone called me out for carrying when I was wearing a vest. Now, that's just anecdotal evidence, but the burden of proof is on those who hypothesize that wearing a vest or cargo pants suggest carrying a gun to the average person. The null is that it does not.

I am inclined to believe coin purse saps are similar.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I really have to disagree with this. I love my Foster coin sap, and when it's stuffed full it's plenty dense and heavy enough to do damage.

Also, I have traveled with it plenty of times. TSA and security guards have never given me a second look or denied entry. I have carried it on airplanes, into clubs, concerts, sporting events and all manner of weapons free zones.

I promise that would not be possible to do with a true sap or blackjack.

Same. I've given it to naysayers and told them to lightly slap their forearm. 100% have STFU after that. When I go through a TSA checkpoint, I dump all the coins in my laptop bag then load it back up in the bathroom on the other side. Probably don't even need to do that, but I've yet to have it questioned in the slightest.

I also asked Craig Douglas (the guy who *is* Shivworks) for some tips and a brief training session. He certainly wasn't dismissive of the foster's coin sap.

 

[MCgrease08]

I've found there is no need to empty the coins prior to TSA, but I have learned to send the sap through the scanner in the tray out of the bag.

The few times I had it in the carry-on, they pulled me aside for closer inspection. The lump of coins creates a dark space on the x-ray and they wanted to open it up and check that I didn't have anything hidden in the middle. By having it in the tray, they can open it up quickly without having to pull the entire bag and rummage through it. Then I can slip it into my pocket before getting on the flight.

 

[cosermann]

BBI and MCgrease,

Just to be clear, you guys are relating your experience with this sap, or something similar (which is sort of sap-shaped) - coin sap

And not something like this (which is more bag-shaped) - Danny Boy Belt Loop Coin Sap by Greenman Leather .ca :: Quality Handcrafted Leather Goods :: Etobicoke, Ontario, Canada

Right?

 

[MCgrease08]

BBI and MCgrease,

Just to be clear, you guys are relating your experience with this sap, or something similar (which is sort of sap-shaped) - coin sap

And not something like this (which is more bag-shaped) - Danny Boy Belt Loop Coin Sap by Greenman Leather .ca :: Quality Handcrafted Leather Goods :: Etobicoke, Ontario, Canada

Right?

This is what mine looks like. I chose the compact size with pinky loop.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BBI and MCgrease,

Just to be clear, you guys are relating your experience with this sap, or something similar (which is sort of sap-shaped) - coin sap

...

Right?

Yup, Foster Coin Sap. I also went with the pinky ring. Craig recommended choking up on it a bit and not using the ring, though.

 

[Brad69]

I was in a class and the Instructor appeared to be squared away then he talked about having a “coin purse”.
WTF is this dude gonna start talking about fanny packs then he showed how you can slap the snot out of a bad guy with a “coin purse”.
My faith was restored in the Instuctor!

BTW He also does almost a dance step when shooting on the move!

 

[cosermann]

This is what mine looks like. I chose the compact size with pinky loop.

Yup, Foster Coin Sap. I also went with the pinky ring. Craig recommended choking up on it a bit and not using the ring, though.

Thanks guys. Curious on your thinking regarding the pinky loop/ring vs. the strap. Is it a solid ring or more like a split/key ring?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Thanks guys. Curious on your thinking regarding the pinky loop/ring vs. the strap. Is it a solid ring or more like a split/key ring?

Solid ring. I wanted the ring for two reasons. One, I hook my house key and alarm fob on it to make it even more innocuous looking. Two, I can have my pinky finger through it as I "get my keys" making it much easier to pull from my pocket and get a grip on. To me the strap makes it look more "sap" and less "coin purse", and I actually do use it to hold change and (as stated) keys.

I'd not put car keys on it, though, way too much weight pulling down on your ignition if you still use real keys.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I was in a class and the Instructor appeared to be squared away then he talked about having a “coin purse”.
WTF is this dude gonna start talking about fanny packs then he showed how you can slap the snot out of a bad guy with a “coin purse”.
My faith was restored in the Instuctor!

BTW He also does almost a dance step when shooting on the move!

He sounds dreamy.