selling in the classifieds

[TheGrumpyGuy]

In case you haven’t filled one out in a while.
Paper copy https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4...n-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download

Very common now for sellers/retailers to ditch paper and use electronic copies.

Now that I clicked that link, I'm on their radar for sure. Thanks.

 

[Cameramonkey]

This ^

I moved about 10 years ago.
I talked to a state trooper he said exactly what Marvin said. He did add that if I'm in a different state and my LTCH showed a different address than my DL local police might find that odd.
He gave that as a heads-up so to speak.
I went ahead and had them issue me a new card with my new address. I do travel out of state often so the less problems the better if out of state.

$20 is cheap insurance.

Many years ago I encountered a real life Barney Fife who literally told me "if I go back to my car and the address on this card isnt correct, you are going to jail today for carrying without a license. So do you have anything to tell me? "

20 minutes later he finally cut me loose because at the time their dispatch wasnt connected directly to the state, and nobody from the ISP would call them back to verify the validity of my pink permission slip.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It's my understanding that FFL records should be destroyed after 10 years. If true, what happens if the gun is over 10 years old?

I don't know the retention period requirements.

 

[DadSmith]

$20 is cheap insurance.

Many years ago I encountered a real life Barney Fife who literally told me "if I go back to my car and the address on this card isnt correct, you are going to jail today for carrying without a license. So do you have anything to tell me? "

20 minutes later he finally cut me loose because at the time their dispatch wasnt connected directly to the state, and nobody from the ISP would call them back to verify the validity of my pink permission slip.

This is exactly why I went with the updated card.

Can you imagine this in a different state with local LEO.

 

[BMWRich]

I don't know the retention period requirements.

Last I checked for Illinois was minimum 10 years for a personal owner/transfer…..Your State Law “may vary”.

FFL, gun retailer….their records are to be handed over to the ATF after close of said business.
If and when this “hand over” Law was enacted I don’t know.

 

[BMWRich]

I just posted this on another thread….in-regards to “transport/carry” kinda off subject so I apologize
scroll down to #32 https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/lifetime-vs-5-year-ltch.545730/page-2#post-9850541

 

[BMWRich]

$20 is cheap insurance.

Many years ago I encountered a real life Barney Fife who literally told me "if I go back to my car and the address on this card isnt correct, you are going to jail today for carrying without a license. So do you have anything to tell me? "

20 minutes later he finally cut me loose because at the time their dispatch wasnt connected directly to the state, and nobody from the ISP would call them back to verify the validity of my pink permission slip.

We all have to remember that we’re all dealing with humans.
Some of US have good days and some of US have bad days.
And then….some forget to take their meds on occasion…….
Life‘s tough…….have a good day!

 

[Cameramonkey]

We all have to remember that we’re all dealing with humans.
Some of US have good days and some of US have bad days.
And then….some forget to take their meds on occasion…….
Life‘s tough…….have a good day!

A cop enforcing a simple law should know the law. Specifically that it doesnt matter what's on the card. What matters is the ISP database.

Unlawfully arresting someone for something that you think is illegal but is not is a bit more than "just a bad day".

And we arent talking about some obscure complex legal issue. Its very clear. And if you cant understand it you have no business enforcing it.

 

[ditcherman]

In here, I smell 2A but….

 

[BMWRich]

Not trying to argue or take sides, but maybe understand from a different vantage point.

… after the arrest….the Courts step in…..
at least here in America that’s how its ’posta be.
Rule of Law not Rule of How I feel….
If unhappy with the result, their are other avenues to go down for results.

 

[bowhunter911]

Or is it 10 years if paperwork they have to hand over to the atf if they go out of business?

my FFL also told me that the ATF is "supposed" to delete all of the 4473's that come in at the end of each business day, although im not so sure that it happens.

 

[bobzilla]

my FFL also told me that the ATF is "supposed" to delete all of the 4473's that come in at the end of each business day, although I'm certain it never happens.

Corrected for accuracy

 

[bobzilla]

Now that I clicked that link, I'm on their radar for sure. Thanks.

I'm on enough watch lists, I don't need to add another.

 

[loudgroove]

my FFL also told me that the ATF is "supposed" to delete all of the 4473's that come in at the end of each business day, although im not so sure that it happens.

I just did my own research. Not that I didn't believe you, but yes 20 years, and now they may turn them over to the aft after this time or keep them as long as they are in business. Or if they go out of business, they have to turn over all 20 years of their records. What I couldn't find out is what the arf is allowed to do with the 20-year-old records. I'm also not sure where I got the 10 years from. hmmmm

 

[BehindBlueI's]

my FFL also told me that the ATF is "supposed" to delete all of the 4473's that come in at the end of each business day, although im not so sure that it happens.

That doesn't sound right to, but again it's outside my sphere of knowledge. When I first started, you had to connect the bread crumbs in order. Gun maker sends it to shop X, you had to go to shop X and they sold it to Bill. Talk to Bill and he said he traded it at shop Y. Go to shop Y and they said they sold it to lil' blind Timmy. Timmy died last year, trail ends. Now you can skip shop X in some circumstances because if you run the serial number shop Y will come up as well so you know whoever shop X sold it do doesn't have it any longer. You still have to follow the bread crumb trail, but you can skip all the crumbs you know are old. If Shop Y is electronic records, you'll get who they sold it too pretty quick. Paper records, as far as I know you have to wait for the shop to respond. If they were in town, I just went in person usually. Note I haven't ran anything myself in probably 5 years or more.

If the ATF has other capabilities, I don't know what they are. They sometimes run traces for us in high profile stuff, say an officer involved shooting, since they get them back quicker than we do, but the info is the same.

 

[BMWRich]

You men take it from here.
I gots to do some finger exercises.
Mr .22 Henry pump and the Glock family offered ta’help.

 

[ditcherman]

Not trying to argue or take sides,

Ok. It is a discussion though..

but maybe understand from a different vantage point.

I considered it. The umpteenth time it came up on here but when I was new to it. That time. And now we’re here at this time.
Considered the logic and decided on it.
Thus far, your logic has not convinced me otherwise.

… after the arrest….the Courts step in…..

Wait!! Who got arrested?!? I missed the news!
(What kind of scenario are you trying to paint now?)

at least here in America that’s how its ’posta be.
Rule of Law not Rule of How I feel….

But you’re the one who argued earlier that we need to be wary/considerate of a cop having a bad day (feelings) and misinterpreting the law.

If unhappy with the result, their are other avenues to go down for results.

We’re probably not gonna agree on this, and that’s ok, you do you yadda yadda, but it’s also fine to have a discussion on it where we each get to make our points.

And there’s no winner or loser but I’m way ahead in likes.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Not trying to argue or take sides, but maybe understand from a different vantage point.

… after the arrest….the Courts step in…..
at least here in America that’s how its ’posta be.
Rule of Law not Rule of How I feel….
If unhappy with the result, their are other avenues to go down for results.

So how much does it cost to pay a lawyer to expunge that arrest record because he was ignorant and "just having a bad day"? Not to mention getting your car out of impound because it was towed "because he was having a bad day".

Somebody "just having a bad day" doesnt cost you thousands of dollars.

 

[cmdrken1]

I've dealt with buying and selling as part of the gun hobby going back about 25 years now. Armslist when it was free, Facebook gun groups before the crackdown, etc etc etc. In all that time in Oklahoma, Illinois, and just recently now Indiana I got a call I didn't want just one time.

I was at work in 2015 and got a call on my cell phone from the FBI looking for a S&W M&P 9mm I had bought brand new at the base exchange at Tinker AFB in Oklahoma. At the time I was in Iowa. I had sold it to a person I thought was good to go a while back. They asked if I had any information on who I sold it and I provided them with a name and number from my Facebook messenger messages to the buyer that I happened to still have. It had been sold beyond that person and ended up with someone that got in some big federal trouble. Time goes by and I get an official court looking document in the mail. They wanted me to fill out a bunch of paperwork if I wanted the gun back. I sent back the "hell no destroy it" option and that was the end of that.

Point is that any gun you buy new then sell privately the government is coming to you first. Since then I've almost exclusively bought older used guns and I've only sold to people I know or FFLs etc. Would I sell a gun on INGO? Sure with a driver's license and LTCH check and a handshake if they seem legitimate. I personally just don't buy or sell that much anymore.

 

[bowhunter911]

about 25 years ago my buddy bought a used s&w 586 from blythes, a while later he got a call at work from the cops, they said he had to leave work RIGHT NOW and bring them the gun, luckly his dad was the owner where he worked, and allowed him to leave and meet the cops with the gun, blythes was good about it and gave him a brand new 586 to replace the used one he had to give to the cops.