Serious Training "Incident"

[Jackson]

Saying this will surely lose me the respect of all INGO, but I've participated in a drill or two somewhat similar to the one in the video. There can be more space and time between the people coming in front of you than it appears in the video.

That's not to say it's as safe as standing still in your own static position on one line, but it can be done without ever pointing your gun at anyone. Let alone shooting them.

I haven't read too much on this, but it sounds like the accident in question happened because they were trying to conduct force on force exercises with live guns in the mix. It wasn't related to this drill.

I know. You'll tell me its related because this drill demonstrates the lack of safety awareness and care in their overall approach. Maybe so. Still, the drill can be done without violating the 4 rules. FoF with live guns cannot.

 

[Brad69]

I started in “high risk” training at the age of 17 experienced quite of bit of death and destruction along the way. The best risk assessment and mitigation measures were in place that helped reduce risk but not eliminate risk.

The guy who who lost his hand doing a breach charge, the dude who drown in fuel when his track turned over, the helicopter that hit a tree at night, the guy who took a .50 at about 12ft because they thought it was clear. I could go on and on you guys get the point this was just training stuff not combat.

I have a high tolerance for risk in training if you train realistically and close to the edge mistakes are gonna happen. Trained Cadre that are certified, a lesson plan that is approved by the powers that be, proper equipment and safety equipment, physically qualified to conduct training, mindset, all factor into a training plan. One thing is not mentioned much is the need for training I needed tough realistic training to survive you may as well.

What about the human factor?
You wear eye pro ear pro on a range but are you really ready to train on the edge?
My family is prepared for my demise at a training event, Will in place, Life Insurance in the correct amount and current, Medical insurance with no catastrophic cap, short and long term Workmans comp that covers me off duty, Pension Plan keeps on going for wife.
I never thought I would live to see 30 years old now at 50 I have cheated death and seem to enjoy getting older.

So all that being said what I witnessed in the video is IMO stupid risk has to have a training value. The Instructors also need to IMO have certain quality’s if I am going to train on how to shoot a pistol better. I want a person who has displayed the ability to shoot a pistol in comparison better than the average person, to me that means he or she needs to have experience and demonstrated ability.

When you see “jack of all trades” type of instructors be wary with the exception of highly trained career people in small fields like DOD, Military and some Police and Security they are not qualified. If you wanna train at PhD level you can’t start with preschool experience a person is not capable of training you in Combatives, Pistol, Rifle, Demolition, Basic Tactics, Room Clearing, and even more without already completing a career doing it. Guys that are are qualified and do train people at that level can be counted on you hands and toes be selective with your $$$.

I wonder the background of the Individual that was injured and life was changed?
I assume he was prepared to train on the edge and trusted the “instructor” ?


BTW

James kinda has a point he makes a nice living conducting training then to have someone to take your plan and run away with it would upset a person.
He also touted his time with James to promote his business and how he learned what to do from James.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Saying this will surely lose me the respect of all INGO, but I've participated in a drill or two somewhat similar to the one in the video. There can be more space and time between the people coming in front of you than it appears in the video.

That's not to say it's as safe as standing still in your own static position on one line, but it can be done without ever pointing your gun at anyone. Let alone shooting them.

I haven't read too much on this, but it sounds like the accident in question happened because they were trying to conduct force on force exercises with live guns in the mix. It wasn't related to this drill.

I know. You'll tell me its related because this drill demonstrates the lack of safety awareness and care in their overall approach. Maybe so. Still, the drill can be done without violating the 4 rules. FoF with live guns cannot.

Agreed. I wouldnt step foot in a FoF environment that isnt sterile. You want to point a "gun" at someone in class? It had better be a blue gun, have a training barrel inserted, or simunition fed. (while Ive got my PPE on) Nothing else.

I'll never forget the one FoF class I took at Mindset Labs. His attention to detail was crazy. Wanding, pat downs, etc.

 

[ECS686]

Agreed. I wouldnt step foot in a FoF environment that isnt sterile. You want to point a "gun" at someone in class? It had better be a blue gun, have a training barrel inserted, or simunition fed. (while Ive got my PPE on) Nothing else.

I'll never forget the one FoF class I took at Mindset Labs. His attention to detail was crazy. Wanding, pat downs, etc.

As someone that has trained and is tasked with certifying staff with simunitions totally agree. I (like most here) will be Interested in the after action review. Obviously it wasn't a true simunitions brand or a round couldn't get chambered (bot that a real rou d should have been anywhere around)

We shall see

 

[Trapper Jim]

As someone that has trained and is tasked with certifying staff with simunitions totally agree. I (like most here) will be Interested in the after action review. Obviously it wasn't a true simunitions brand or a round couldn't get chambered (bot that a real rou d should have been anywhere around)

We shall see

Action reviews can be helpful and they can really be important to the overall findings. However my experience with studying shooting negligence is so often getting the real facts of what happened is muddy at best. Owning the accident, ego, and liability run too high in the person or persons that created the fail. We do know this, advanced module or not, the so called expert trainers so often are not real shooters in my opinion. Before one hangs a shingle he needs to have studied and practiced marksmanship into the tens of thousands of rounds a year successfully for many years. Once achieved can that person teach safely? Can he actually hit anything that is not 2 yards in front of him? Does he shoot everything he can? Every game he can? Are his fundamentals intrinsic? We used to have a saying back in the day....he's a OGG (one gun guy) fast forward to today and we now have (one game guy). There are no limits in being a student of the gun forever and being stuck in one rut sometimes will make you good at that venue but don't be fooled in not being able to see the forest for the trees. We will never stop stupid but we need to educate and define what is good training. Good luck to all.

 

[devildog70]

I started in “high risk” training at the age of 17 experienced quite of bit of death and destruction along the way. The best risk assessment and mitigation measures were in place that helped reduce risk but not eliminate risk.

The guy who who lost his hand doing a breach charge, the dude who drown in fuel when his track turned over, the helicopter that hit a tree at night, the guy who took a .50 at about 12ft because they thought it was clear. I could go on and on you guys get the point this was just training stuff not combat.

I have a high tolerance for risk in training if you train realistically and close to the edge mistakes are gonna happen. Trained Cadre that are certified, a lesson plan that is approved by the powers that be, proper equipment and safety equipment, physically qualified to conduct training, mindset, all factor into a training plan. One thing is not mentioned much is the need for training I needed tough realistic training to survive you may as well.

I'd also say that true down-range training is not conducted anywhere I have taken it, without students being highly vetted/experienced. In the video, that was not the case (although the owner, in his defense of the video, said all of the students had been through a few days of training).

What about the human factor?
You wear eye pro ear pro on a range but are you really ready to train on the edge?
My family is prepared for my demise at a training event, Will in place, Life Insurance in the correct amount and current, Medical insurance with no catastrophic cap, short and long term Workmans comp that covers me off duty, Pension Plan keeps on going for wife.
I never thought I would live to see 30 years old now at 50 I have cheated death and seem to enjoy getting older.

So all that being said what I witnessed in the video is IMO stupid risk has to have a training value. The Instructors also need to IMO have certain quality’s if I am going to train on how to shoot a pistol better. I want a person who has displayed the ability to shoot a pistol in comparison better than the average person, to me that means he or she needs to have experience and demonstrated ability.

When you see “jack of all trades” type of instructors be wary with the exception of highly trained career people in small fields like DOD, Military and some Police and Security they are not qualified. If you wanna train at PhD level you can’t start with preschool experience a person is not capable of training you in Combatives, Pistol, Rifle, Demolition, Basic Tactics, Room Clearing, and even more without already completing a career doing it. Guys that are are qualified and do train people at that level can be counted on you hands and toes be selective with your $$$.

I wonder the background of the Individual that was injured and life was changed?
I assume he was prepared to train on the edge and trusted the “instructor” ?


BTW

James kinda has a point he makes a nice living conducting training then to have someone to take your plan and run away with it would upset a person.
He also touted his time with James to promote his business and how he learned what to do from James.

 

[GIJEW]

Saying this will surely lose me the respect of all INGO, but I've participated in a drill or two somewhat similar to the one in the video. There can be more space and time between the people coming in front of you than it appears in the video.

That's not to say it's as safe as standing still in your own static position on one line, but it can be done without ever pointing your gun at anyone. Let alone shooting them.

I haven't read too much on this, but it sounds like the accident in question happened because they were trying to conduct force on force exercises with live guns in the mix. It wasn't related to this drill.

I know. You'll tell me its related because this drill demonstrates the lack of safety awareness and care in their overall approach. Maybe so. Still, the drill can be done without violating the 4 rules. FoF with live guns cannot.

You're right about the distinction between FoF and drills like this. And yes, this drill can be done without violating safety rules but given the risk vs training benefit, is it worth it? I dont think so. If the drill was related to some actual task/action rather than something sterile, it might be worth it, but then, it's better to just do this with simunitions since that's available.
Brad69 correctly pointed out that not all (or most?) instructors are qualified to provide training at this level. Having a MIL/LE background doesn't automatically provide that. Like Coach said: "Passing 3rd grade doesn't mean you're qualified to teach it".
Likewise, are the students qualified to participate in a drill like this? I didn't see the "appalling clumsiness" that Pincus spoke of, but the students did look average in their abilities. I wonder what kind of vetting they did of their students before running this drill?

 

[Brad69]

Here is another “incident” didn’t want to start a new thread for “mistakes”!

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2019/09/new-hampshire-range-officers-shooting/

 

[Jackson]

You're right about the distinction between FoF and drills like this. And yes, this drill can be done without violating safety rules but given the risk vs training benefit, is it worth it? I dont think so. If the drill was related to some actual task/action rather than something sterile, it might be worth it, but then, it's better to just do this with simunitions since that's available.
Brad69 correctly pointed out that not all (or most?) instructors are qualified to provide training at this level. Having a MIL/LE background doesn't automatically provide that. Like Coach said: "Passing 3rd grade doesn't mean you're qualified to teach it".
Likewise, are the students qualified to participate in a drill like this? I didn't see the "appalling clumsiness" that Pincus spoke of, but the students did look average in their abilities. I wonder what kind of vetting they did of their students before running this drill?

I don't know what benefits the instructor intended, who the students were, or what their needs might be. I agree on all points regarding the need to consider the risk/benefit ratio when considering drills to do. This one may not meet the threshold.

I'm just saying I didn't think this drill or any like it were related to the actual incident in any way.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Here is another “incident” didn’t want to start a new thread for “mistakes”!

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2019/09/new-hampshire-range-officers-shooting/

Told you so. Looks like the Blue Gun Paradigm hits again.

 

[JollyMon]

Told you so. Looks like the Blue Gun Paradigm hits again.

The blue gun didn’t hurt anyone. It didn’t shoot a bullet and anyone that mistakes a blue gun for a real gun probably has problems with drawings as well

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2019/09/new-hampshire-range-officers-shooting/

maybe we can start a new thread “RSO training, or lack there of, view of the world through a hand ”

 

[Trapper Jim]

The blue gun didn’t hurt anyone. It didn’t shoot a bullet and anyone that mistakes a blue gun for a real gun probably has problems with drawings as well



maybe we can start a new thread “RSO training, or lack there of, view of the world through a hand ”

I still choose to not handle blue guns inappropriately as it may enable through association the casual handling of any real gun that Billy Bob thinks it’s harmless cause it ain’t loaded. If you have never witnessed this I guess I see where it may be difficult for some to understand.

 

[Karl-just-Karl]

maybe we can start a new thread “RSO training, or lack there of, view of the world through a hand ”

Not to derail too much, but it would be fair to have a similar thread.

One day I wasn't on duty (another RSO was) and I was in front of the firing line during a cease-fire collecting my brass. When I looked up someone was putting down a handgun and I was looking right down the muzzle. When I pointed it out to the RSO his response (in short) was that he knew it was safe because the slide was locked back. I guess the rule about not handling firearms during a ceasefire should be flexible if the RSO thinks it so.

It still makes me PO'd thinking about it.

 

[churchmouse]

Not to derail too much, but it would be fair to have a similar thread.

One day I wasn't on duty (another RSO was) and I was in front of the firing line during a cease-fire collecting my brass. When I looked up someone was putting down a handgun and I was looking right down the muzzle. When I pointed it out to the RSO his response (in short) was that he knew it was safe because the slide was locked back. I guess the rule about not handling firearms during a ceasefire should be flexible if the RSO thinks it so.

It still makes me PO'd thinking about it.

Maybe he was taught this way with a blue gun.

These safety breaches set my hair on fire. I have young G-kids that are showing an interest in shooting. Point anything at them in a range environment and it is on. Blue, stainless no matter.
You train as you will shoot. Pretty freaking simple actually. Not every person is very far past eating crayons as has been shown in the threads related to this topic. So lets get on track. We can be our own worst enemys.

 

[Coach]

I got a call this afternoon with some info on the shooting. It was a fof situation. There was a lunch break a new instructor came in after lunch and slipped through the pat down process that was obviously lax and shot the dude through the neck. Victim is paralyzed from the neck down. Likely to stay that way.

 

[Trapper Jim]

So Sad. Completely Avoidable but Sad.

 

[CampingJosh]

I got a call this afternoon with some info on the shooting. It was a fof situation. There was a lunch break a new instructor came in after lunch and slipped through the pat down process that was obviously lax and shot the dude through the neck. Victim is paralyzed from the neck down. Likely to stay that way.

Shot by an instructor? That's especially egregious.

 

[Coach]

Shot by an instructor? That's especially egregious.

When you have a live pistol in a FOF situation nothing good can come of it. Protocols were not followed. A third party instructor coming into the class part way through the day. This is my understanding.

 

[Coach]

I was also told this entire episode was taken down on gun forum in Penn. where this happened. One thing I like about INGO is that freedom of speech happens here.

 

[Coach]

So Sad. Completely Avoidable but Sad.

Yes.