Serious Training "Incident"

[ECS686]

When you have a live pistol in a FOF situation nothing good can come of it. Protocols were not followed. A third party instructor coming into the class part way through the day. This is my understanding.

Thanks for the earlier update Coach. Keep us informed on anything else.

Even when we have our annual refresher training aka qualifications the couple 3 of us that are armed as lead i don't allow them to do any actual teaching.
The one ineuctor th hat starts is the one th hat does it all.
And when we do any FOF or simunition training it's never on A day where live fire is involved or are there ANY live weapons around.

 

[SmileDocHill]

I still choose to not handle blue guns inappropriately as it may enable through association the casual handling of any real gun that Billy Bob thinks it’s harmless cause it ain’t loaded. If you have never witnessed this I guess I see where it may be difficult for some to understand.

The entire blue gun vs real gun issue is more confused than it should be in my opinion. There is the act of teaching and there are props used to aid in teaching, they are two different things. Actual safety issues and poor gun handling skills are a result of bad teaching, you can't blame the props the teacher used.

 

[Trapper Jim]

The entire blue gun vs real gun issue is more confused than it should be in my opinion. There is the act of teaching and there are props used to aid in teaching, they are two different things. Actual safety issues and poor gun handling skills are a result of bad teaching, you can't blame the props the teacher used.

Actually No. in reality we have what is called a Conditioned Result. I’m can’t give you the whole class on this in this media but we all deal with CR every single day. In short, we set up the fail by enabling the perfect storm. It happens in driving, in the work place , on the iPhone, the way we eat etc. and other habits that bring on good and bad results. The habit of pointing and pulling a trigger of an unloaded gun at something that you believe is safe sets up disaster for many people.

 

[rhino]

Actually No. in reality we have what is called a Conditioned Result. I’m can’t give you the whole class on this in this media but we all deal with CR every single day. In short, we set up the fail by enabling the perfect storm. It happens in driving, in the work place , on the iPhone, the way we eat etc. and other habits that bring on good and bad results. The habit of pointing and pulling a trigger of an unloaded gun at something that you believe is safe sets up disaster for many people.

You're never going to let go of equating an inert piece of plastic with an unloaded/loaded gun, are you?

So how close to being a gun does something have to be to cause these effects? Does a crude wooden prop that people used before red and blue guns meet that standard? What about a plastic coat hanger that has been cut to the vague outline of a gun to use to practice disarms (for people who don't want to cut the trigger guards on their blue guns)? What about holding your fingers in the shape of a gun in the classic cool guy gesture? Or a picture of a gun? Or a Pop-Tart that a kid chewed into the shape of a gun? If you choose to believe that seeing someone "mishandling" a chunk of blue plastic in the shape of a gun leads to tragedy, then you'll need to share with us why you don't also have to handle other inert objects as you would handle a gun.

Where do you draw the line between what you think has to be handled the same way as a gun and something that does not? If you say inert plastic replicas, then you'll have to share with the class how they're different from other gun-shaped objects that don't require the same level of attention.

My answer: if it's a gun, handle it like a gun. Everything else pretty much isn't a gun.

Your belief that seeing someone "play" with an inert, plastic replica -- that is clearly nothing more than an inert piece of plastic -- will somehow translate into people believing they can handle real guns the same way whether loaded or unloaded will need some actual evidence to get past the level of "weird assertion."

 

[Vigilant]

Actually No. in reality we have what is called a Conditioned Result. I’m can’t give you the whole class on this in this media but we all deal with CR every single day. In short, we set up the fail by enabling the perfect storm. It happens in driving, in the work place , on the iPhone, the way we eat etc. and other habits that bring on good and bad results. The habit of pointing and pulling a trigger of an unloaded gun at something that you believe is safe sets up disaster for many people.

Im guessing that FoF classes are bad too?

 

[Trapper Jim]

You're never going to let go of equating an inert piece of plastic with an unloaded/loaded gun, are you?

So how close to being a gun does something have to be to cause these effects? Does a crude wooden prop that people used before red and blue guns meet that standard? What about a plastic coat hanger that has been cut to the vague outline of a gun to use to practice disarms (for people who don't want to cut the trigger guards on their blue guns)? What about holding your fingers in the shape of a gun in the classic cool guy gesture? Or a picture of a gun? Or a Pop-Tart that a kid chewed into the shape of a gun? If you choose to believe that seeing someone "mishandling" a chunk of blue plastic in the shape of a gun leads to tragedy, then you'll need to share with us why you don't also have to handle other inert objects as you would handle a gun.


Where do you draw the line between what you think has to be handled the same way as a gun and something that does not? If you say inert plastic replicas, then you'll have to share with the class how they're different from other gun-shaped objects that don't require the same level of attention.

My answer: if it's a gun, handle it like a gun. Everything else pretty much isn't a gun.

Your belief that seeing someone "play" with an inert, plastic replica -- that is clearly nothing more than an inert piece of plastic -- will somehow translate into people believing they can handle real guns the same way whether loaded or unloaded will need some actual evidence to get past the level of "weird assertion."

You do what you want. I will not ever condone the careless handling of pointing anything at anybody unless I want to intimidate or hurt them. Or as in the many cases I have seen where the instructor comes close to boring the students to death with a toy. If you are going to handle a prop that is supposed to emulate a gun, then handle the prop like a gun. As stated earlier I do not need a prop to demonstrate on what NOT to do, but can effectively use a real gun to show WHAT to do while at the same time be more effective with the student as not to waste time on a toy. He is not paying to learn how to play with a toy. There has always been a negative disconnect in learning when you tell/demonstrate to some one on what not to do. Get it? Negative vs Positive instruction. And again advanced modules and special ops aside. It is kinda like texting while driving. We spend millions on public safety ads and education on what not to do (text and drive). However Joe Driver texts and drives for thousands of miles without a problem. He now has an associated parallel with a harmless iphone when one day he slams into a school bus full of children, nuns and babies. Whoops, the Conditioned Result is a negligent driver that watches the explosion and charred bodies all over the asphalt. I want no, none, nada, nothing in my class to associate pointing anything (associated unloaded gun/blue gun etc) at myself or students.

I spend most of my time showing the right way ...right away with a real gun. Teach and lead by doing. Prove the example.



You seem to be concentrating on the noun of a blue gun when I am talking about the atmosphere created by the miss use of this prop. It appears that you feel threatened that someone will take away your blue guns. Not my intention as I am only talking about the miss use of these props. Disclaimer here....By all means if the instructor is inept in gun handling then by all means use toys. A few on this thread have stated that any fool can tell the difference between a prop and real gun. Many of those fools are dead or injured of course as the gun wasn't loaded. In other words the fool was comparing his unloaded gun to a prop. Whoops.

That's just me and you have not convinced me that I am wrong yet. Good luck with that.

 

[downrange72]

I was also told this entire episode was taken down on gun forum in Penn. where this happened. One thing I like about INGO is that freedom of speech happens here.

Unless you tick off a moderator in classifieds who tries to insult your intelligence and you return in kind. Don't tick off the keeper of the ban hammer

 

[freekforge]

I had a instructor from a dept. I was on walk into a fof with his duty gun on his belt. I politely stopped him as soon as I noticed and told him that the rules the very rules he yelled about trying to sound like a DI for 20 minutes said no live guns. He said it was fine. He sat it on the table as he strapped up and I picked it up and locked it in MY car and told the chief that I would not unlock my car unless a call came out. Thankfully chief agreed 100% and backed me. You don't mess with that stuff when you're pointing guns at each other.