Shooting or Fighting

[BehindBlueI's]

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/shooting-easy-part-dont-tell-gun-fights/

 

[Leadeye]

Killing isn't easy, the first time. It violates all teaching we get as kids from parents, church, etc. Military, LEO, or persistent training may speed a man through part of that proces,s and there are some people where it will come easier than others, which all translates into time. A very short amount of time where you have to shoot first to be alive afterward.

 

[GIJEW]

What I understood Spaulding to be saying was NOT some either-or choice between skills and mindset, but that teaching students to be ruthless and combative is both harder to do and more important than skills.

That doesn't mean skills don't count. All things being equal, skill wins. And if things aren't "equal", skills could compensate and get you out of a bad situation.

As I understand it: just as tactics are more important that the type of weapon; mindset is more important than skill set.

 

[GIJEW]

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/shooting-easy-part-dont-tell-gun-fights/

Thanks for finding and posting this!

 

[Trapper Jim]

It can be a matter of focus. On one hand one may by pass skill set and study fighting and defensive tactics planning for something that may never happen to him in his lifetime. On another, the competitor practices lots of shooting for something that IS going to happen at his next match.

 

[Denny347]

When I'm putting recruits through scenarios, I've seen these things. We have recruits who have, by scenario time, have been through 22 weeks of their academy. Months of training the warrior mindset, combat shooting, etc. I've seen recruits FREEZE, run away, etc, when getting shot at in the scenarios. I've also seen recruits who were great shots at the range, miss every shot taken at the bad guy, again during the scenarios. I've seen great shooters fold when stressed and mediocre shooters do well in real gunfights. Dealing with the biological effects of stress can only be overcome with training that places the person in as close to life or death situations a safely possible. This needs to be done on a regular basis to stay frosty. This may sound cynical but I don't trust many of the officers on my department to be "combat effective" when the SHTF so I sure as hell don't trust the general public to be so either. Then again, a gunfighter who is harmless without their gun really isn't that dangerous to begin with, regardless of their shooting skills.

 

[Vigilant]

When I'm putting recruits through scenarios, I've seen these things. We have recruits who have, by scenario time, have been through 22 weeks of their academy. Months of training the warrior mindset, combat shooting, etc. I've seen recruits FREEZE, run away, etc, when getting shot at in the scenarios. I've also seen recruits who were great shots at the range, miss every shot taken at the bad guy, again during the scenarios. I've seen great shooters fold when stressed and mediocre shooters do well in real gunfights. Dealing with the biological effects of stress can only be overcome with training that places the person in as close to life or death situations a safely possible. This needs to be done on a regular basis to stay frosty. This may sound cynical but I don't trust many of the officers on my department to be "combat effective" when the SHTF so I sure as hell don't trust the general public to be so either. Then again, a gunfighter who is harmless without their gun really isn't that dangerous to begin with, regardless of their shooting skills.

Why Denny, you’ve done it again!

 

[Coach]

When I'm putting recruits through scenarios, I've seen these things. We have recruits who have, by scenario time, have been through 22 weeks of their academy. Months of training the warrior mindset, combat shooting, etc. I've seen recruits FREEZE, run away, etc, when getting shot at in the scenarios. I've also seen recruits who were great shots at the range, miss every shot taken at the bad guy, again during the scenarios. I've seen great shooters fold when stressed and mediocre shooters do well in real gunfights. Dealing with the biological effects of stress can only be overcome with training that places the person in as close to life or death situations a safely possible. This needs to be done on a regular basis to stay frosty. This may sound cynical but I don't trust many of the officers on my department to be "combat effective" when the SHTF so I sure as hell don't trust the general public to be so either. Then again, a gunfighter who is harmless without their gun really isn't that dangerous to begin with, regardless of their shooting skills.

Does not matter the activity. There is a difference between game time and practice. Some people are gamers and some are not. Pressure turn coal to diamonds and it makes small crack big cracks. Some can handle it and some cannot.

 

[Sigblitz]

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/shooting-easy-part-dont-tell-gun-fights/

Thanks. The loop is there, I just didn't know it was a thing. The other articles in the link look like interesting reads.

 

[nakinate]

Only on INGO would you get a thread making fun of the incompetence we see at the range AND a thread discussing whether or not marksmanship is important in a gun fight.

 

[breakingcontact]

Alive at the end by any means necessary.

Agree and it is more of a mixed martial arts fight than a boxing match.

Need to be competent at everything.

 

[Coach]

Agree and it is more of a mixed martial arts fight than a boxing match.

Need to be competent at everything.

Whitesettlement texas says different.

 

[Sigblitz]

2 'trained' security team members didn't make it, but that's a thread no one will dive into. I mean, the second victim just backed up and gave him a better shot.

 

[Sigblitz]

/\ This is from a martial artist, not a keyboard commando. He could be above ground, with the proper training and execution.

 

[Coach]

2 'trained' security team members didn't make it, but that's a thread no one will dive into. I mean, the second victim just backed up and gave him a better shot.

As I understand the second man shot was not on the security team. The first man was and failed to act soon enough. Speed not method of defense was the issue. Get through the ooda loop faster.

If defending yourself requires mma most people have no chance. The gun is the great equalizer. That was my point. Jack did nothing with hands to end the fight but fill them with a pistol, aim and press.

Not sure if jack could have won with mma.

 

[Denny347]

Whitesettlement texas says different.

Statistical outlier. Actually knives top the list of Agg Assault weapons and those are typically close quarters, very difficult to address with a handgun if you haven't trained for it. Your marksmanship has FAR less value in these instances. Almost to the point of worthlessness.

 

[Twangbanger]

Statistical outlier. Actually knives top the list of Agg Assault weapons and those are typically close quarters, very difficult to address with a handgun if you haven't trained for it. Your marksmanship has FAR less value in these instances. Almost to the point of worthlessness.

Faced with a knife, most of what gets commonly practiced on a mat also approaches uselessness.

And everything is an outlier, if you're processing the world through a filter.

The word "outlier" is really just another word for "data point." (A shot in the D zone is not an outlier. It's just what happened...something which Mr. Wilson probably understands).

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Craig Douglas of Shivworks teaches a very good class on defense vs an edged weapon. He mentions you should expect to be cut but you can deal with that. Apropos of nothing, shortly after I took the class from him I was in the Louvre in Paris. There was a statue of two knights fighting, one of which had been disarmed. He was using one of the exact techniques Craig teaches in an attempt to neutralize his mace wielding adversary, the elbow tie.

Hand to hand is my weakest area and I'm certainly not an expert just from taking his class but I do think I'm more prepared for a knife attack or close quarters gun fight. If nothing else, I've got some simulated fights under my belt. Pilots get simulations before other people's lives are in their hands. Surgeons do as well. The US military spends a butt ton of time and money simulating combat operations before sending guys into the fight these days. I think that speaks volumes to the value of simulated fights. Like Denny mentions people do weird things in good simulations, the sort your subconscious is taking as real. I've mentioned before that the little voice in my head said "this is exactly like the Simunition scenario we had..." during my shooting. I think that's valuable. As far as a good portion of your brain is concerned, this isn't your first lethal encounter any more than it's the 747 pilot's first instrument only landing when he has to execute for real.

A civilian oriented FATS machine with professional actors who actually display pre-attack indicators would be worth it's weight in gold to those who've already got the fundamentals down and can execute on demand, much more valuable then shaving another tenth off their split times or a half second off their reload time. However there's apparently little supply and, probably, little demand for that on the training circuit. Pre-attack indicators and the OODA loop, confidence in knowing the legality of a shoot, understanding the post-shoot psychology, so many things on the software side just aren't catered to outside of pockets of LE and .MIL. That's a shame, honestly, but it's reality. Books are about the best resource most folks have realistic access to.

 

[Vigilant]

Craig Douglas of Shivworks teaches a very good class on defense vs an edged weapon. He mentions you should expect to be cut but you can deal with that. Apropos of nothing, shortly after I took the class from him I was in the Louvre in Paris. There was a statue of two knights fighting, one of which had been disarmed. He was using one of the exact techniques Craig teaches in an attempt to neutralize his mace wielding adversary, the elbow tie.

Hand to hand is my weakest area and I'm certainly not an expert just from taking his class but I do think I'm more prepared for a knife attack or close quarters gun fight. If nothing else, I've got some simulated fights under my belt. Pilots get simulations before other people's lives are in their hands. Surgeons do as well. The US military spends a butt ton of time and money simulating combat operations before sending guys into the fight these days. I think that speaks volumes to the value of simulated fights. Like Denny mentions people do weird things in good simulations, the sort your subconscious is taking as real. I've mentioned before that the little voice in my head said "this is exactly like the Simunition scenario we had..." during my shooting. I think that's valuable. As far as a good portion of your brain is concerned, this isn't your first lethal encounter any more than it's the 747 pilot's first instrument only landing when he has to execute for real.

A civilian oriented FATS machine with professional actors who actually display pre-attack indicators would be worth it's weight in gold to those who've already got the fundamentals down and can execute on demand, much more valuable then shaving another tenth off their split times or a half second off their reload time. However there's apparently little supply and, probably, little demand for that on the training circuit. Pre-attack indicators and the OODA loop, confidence in knowing the legality of a shoot, understanding the post-shoot psychology, so many things on the software side just aren't catered to outside of pockets of LE and .MIL. That's a shame, honestly, but it's reality. Books are about the best resource most folks have realistic access to.

Shay of Mindset Labs used to offer as close as you could get to that until he lost the building Pleasantville was set up in. Good class, not on par with ECQC, but nowhere near as physical either. As I stated in another thread, most of my training dollars going forward are going to be spent on FoF style training, I’ll probably not repeat ECQC, because of a current shoulder injury, but I’m also not spending the lions share on live fire classes anymore.

 

[Sigblitz]

Statistical outlier. Actually knives top the list of Agg Assault weapons and those are typically close quarters, very difficult to address with a handgun if you haven't trained for it. Your marksmanship has FAR less value in these instances. Almost to the point of worthlessness.

I prefer to flee from knives if I can.