SHTF Test

[gassprint1]

Here's the problem with that contradictory code. If a lockout was required to be on breaker boxes to be "safe" when the cover was removed at any time, they would come factory installed and a seller couldn't sell the home without 1 installed and an inspector would check if a device existed. All the years i worjed in factorys, never did i see such a device when the panel was removed. The device was put on afterwards with an orange or red flag indicating a safety or hazardous area.

 

[firecadet613]

You can disagree all you want with my characterization of your panel but facts are facts and it’s not legal because it doesn’t meet NEC. Do what you want. I won’t stop you. I just want others to know there is a correct way of doing it and it may cost $80 instead of $7 in aluminum signs and screws.

If you want to continue with my fence crossing analogy you can put a chamber flag in. Or a cable lock. Your panel can’t be fitted with a lock to prevent backfeeding.

I’m well aware that most people will never open their panel. Most people will never open their drywall and look for fire blocking but it still must be there. The interlock isn’t there to protect you, it’s to protect linemen.

For arguments sake I hope this generates some interest from an electrician or equivalent so they can chime in and settle it rather than us disagreeing with each other.

It's likely against code for the breaker panel cover to be off while it's in use and not being repaired.

So, as far as I'm concerned, you're argument doesn't matter. Who in their right mind would leave their breaker panel cover off for a long period of time, while the panel is charged and in the course of normal use?

 

[Cameramonkey]

You can disagree all you want with my characterization of your panel but facts are facts and it’s not legal because it doesn’t meet NEC. Do what you want. I won’t stop you. I just want others to know there is a correct way of doing it and it may cost $80 instead of $7 in aluminum signs and screws.

If you want to continue with my fence crossing analogy you can put a chamber flag in. Or a cable lock. Your panel can’t be fitted with a lock to prevent backfeeding.

I’m well aware that most people will never open their panel. Most people will never open their drywall and look for fire blocking but it still must be there. The interlock isn’t there to protect you, it’s to protect linemen.

For arguments sake I hope this generates some interest from an electrician or equivalent so they can chime in and settle it rather than us disagreeing with each other.

Im not being argumentative. I'm genuinely curious. You mention the inability to remove it as being the difference per code. Can you show me on the factory kits what is different that prevents those interlocks from being removed vs a functionally identical homebrew?

I mean, I'd be expecting at least tamper screws. If not the one way screws you see on bathroom stalls. All the interlocks I have seen all have the same screws and appear that they too can be removed.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

You can disagree all you want with my characterization of your panel but facts are facts and it’s not legal because it doesn’t meet NEC. Do what you want. I won’t stop you. I just want others to know there is a correct way of doing it and it may cost $80 instead of $7 in aluminum signs and screws.

If you want to continue with my fence crossing analogy you can put a chamber flag in. Or a cable lock. Your panel can’t be fitted with a lock to prevent backfeeding.

I’m well aware that most people will never open their panel. Most people will never open their drywall and look for fire blocking but it still must be there. The interlock isn’t there to protect you, it’s to protect linemen.

For arguments sake I hope this generates some interest from an electrician or equivalent so they can chime in and settle it rather than us disagreeing with each other.

I think that this is a productive debate, and I'd welcome any professional's input on it. And, please don't think that you're offending me in any way.

It would be my assertion that my setup is not unsafe, and I also assert that it is a legal setup as well. I could have hired a professional electrician to do the work, if the several consultations that I had were true and accurate.

Your attachment included a writer's opinion of his own interpretation of those sections of the NEC, and even the comments on the forum linked on the attachment showed that there was not universal agreement on that. I would invite you to show me specific language in any part of the NEC that would preclude the acceptability of my install. Not trying to be a smart-alec, I just don't think that you have.

Other online searches have detailed that the type of interlock that I installed are legal, even when installed by the homeowner, and that they are safe when used correctly.

 

[laf]

Im not being argumentative. I'm genuinely curious. You mention the inability to remove it as being the difference per code. Can you show me on the factory kits what is different that prevents those interlocks from being removed vs a functionally identical homebrew?

I mean, I'd be expecting at least tamper screws. If not the one way screws you see on bathroom stalls. All the interlocks I have seen all have the same screws and appear that they too can be removed.

Siemens Standby Power Interlock Kit 150 Amp and Up ECSBPK03 - The Home Depot

Reliable product from the technology leader. Technology enabling reliability. When it comes to ready availability, easy installation and fewer callbacks, you need a manufacturer you can trust. Our products

www.homedepot.com

That's the kit from Siemens for their panel. It shows a screw in the upper left corner that is screwed in to the main breaker. When it's attached to the main breaker it sits behind the panel cover. Below that is a riveted portion, that holds the generator inlet breaker on to the panel so it can't be removed.

There's a picture of it in service. You see how it can't be removed while the cover is on the panel? This is my assertion that the Phillips head screws that sit on top of the panel, even if there are nuts behind them, is not the same. You can unscrew that factory interlock screw and it won't fall inside the panel. The kits that sit on top aren't the same.

I'll look for that NEC, you have to pay for an NEC reference books and I don't. I just ask my coworkers for theirs when they're not referencing it.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

OK, credit where it's due. You may be correct about the requirement for the in-feed breaker to have a hold-down bracket. I did find something that indicated it is required in another jurisdiction, and it probably is in ours. It may be that if I had bought the fancy store-bought kit, the hold-down bracket would have been included.

I found one and I plan to order it today so that my panel will be in compliance with that, and I believe that would make my install NEC compliant.

Thanks for posting pictures of your panel, and I do see how that set-up would be superior (from an idiot-proof standpoint) to mine. It doesn't look too expensive, though expense didn't drive my decision to make my own plate, and I won't rule out getting one to install myself in my panel, if it gives me piece of mind. Not like I need to be in a hurry, I could go a few years until I need to use the generator again, I mean now that I'm really prepared it's almost guaranteed not to happen.

 

[R3p1lc3]

I was going to say you are both "right" in each regard. I'm glad I saw this thread I learned something!

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

One last thing for anyone following this tread:

I did go to the website of the company that manufactured my breaker box and found the generator interlock kit that they offer. Actually they offered two kits. One looking identical to mine, made of aluminum, and another more expensive version made of steel and painted grey to match the box. Both of the interlock plates available from the manufacturer mount to the OUTSIDE of the removable front panel of the breaker box like mine does. Both kits also did include a hold-down for the in-feed breaker, which mine does not. The hold-down consists of a plastic zip tie that goes around the infeed breaker and the other 240V breaker next to it to prevent the breaker from being easily pulled loose. I have zip ties and I'll add one there and be good to go. I'll probably go a step further and copy the warning stickers in the store-bought kit, print them out, and stick them in place with spray adhesive to make it look nice.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Siemens Standby Power Interlock Kit 150 Amp and Up ECSBPK03 - The Home Depot

Reliable product from the technology leader. Technology enabling reliability. When it comes to ready availability, easy installation and fewer callbacks, you need a manufacturer you can trust. Our products

www.homedepot.com

That's the kit from Siemens for their panel. It shows a screw in the upper left corner that is screwed in to the main breaker. When it's attached to the main breaker it sits behind the panel cover. Below that is a riveted portion, that holds the generator inlet breaker on to the panel so it can't be removed.

There's a picture of it in service. You see how it can't be removed while the cover is on the panel? This is my assertion that the Phillips head screws that sit on top of the panel, even if there are nuts behind them, is not the same. You can unscrew that factory interlock screw and it won't fall inside the panel. The kits that sit on top aren't the same.

I'll look for that NEC, you have to pay for an NEC reference books and I don't. I just ask my coworkers for theirs when they're not referencing it.

Thank you!

 

[firecadet613]

One last thing for anyone following this tread:

I did go to the website of the company that manufactured my breaker box and found the generator interlock kit that they offer. Actually they offered two kits. One looking identical to mine, made of aluminum, and another more expensive version made of steel and painted grey to match the box. Both of the interlock plates available from the manufacturer mount to the OUTSIDE of the removable front panel of the breaker box like mine does. Both kits also did include a hold-down for the in-feed breaker, which mine does not. The hold-down consists of a plastic zip tie that goes around the infeed breaker and the other 240V breaker next to it to prevent the breaker from being easily pulled loose. I have zip ties and I'll add one there and be good to go. I'll probably go a step further and copy the warning stickers in the store-bought kit, print them out, and stick them in place with spray adhesive to make it look nice.

So then do the manufacturer provided kits not meet code?

 

[melensdad]

So then do the manufacturer provided kits not meet code?

That depends on the code.

Understand that codes vary from city to county to state and while many are somewhat similar, many are different.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

So then do the manufacturer provided kits not meet code?

That's from the installation instructions for the Eaton kit. Looks like standard language and is probably the same on all the products that they sell. I didn't see anything that specifically states that the kit would be code compliant. There was a pdf that said the kit had received MET Laboratories Safety Certification, whatever that means.

After looking in several places, I'm convinced that the important points are that the interlock requires that the main breaker be switched off before the generator in-feed breaker can be switched on, that the plate be sturdy, and that all in-feed breakers, including the main breaker and the generator breaker, are secured in the panel to prevent them from being pulled out. Putting lock-tite on the plate screws prevents the plate from being easily taken off from the outside. Some interlock kits are fastened to the actual breakers, and remain functional in the event that the panel cover is removed, and that's good, but I don't think it's an NEC requirement. If it is, there are dozens of kits being sold that can't comply and many Youtube videos that instruct viewers to install non-compliant equipment.

 

[gassprint1]

View attachment 340649
That's from the installation instructions for the Eaton kit. Looks like standard language and is probably the same on all the products that they sell. I didn't see anything that specifically states that the kit would be code compliant. There was a pdf that said the kit had received MET Laboratories Safety Certification, whatever that means.

After looking in several places, I'm convinced that the important points are that the interlock requires that the main breaker be switched off before the generator in-feed breaker can be switched on, that the plate be sturdy, and that all in-feed breakers, including the main breaker and the generator breaker, are secured in the panel to prevent them from being pulled out. Some interlock kits are fastened to the actual breakers, and remain functional in the event that the panel cover is removed, and that's good, but I don't think it's an NEC requirement. If it is, there are dozens of kits being sold that can't comply and many Youtube videos that instruct viewers to install non-compliant equipment.

The part that makes no sense would be it screwed to the breaker itself or to keep breakers from being pulled out. Your not guna remove a breaker with cover on no matter what you try. And it sounds like those lock outs screwed to the breakers language is more for the commercial industrial setting.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

The part that makes no sense would be it screwed to the breaker itself or to keep breakers from being pulled out. Your not guna remove a breaker with cover on no matter what you try. And it sounds like those lock outs screwed to the breakers language is more for the commercial industrial setting.

I think you're right, that those things pertain to situations other than residential. The breaker hold-down surprised me, and hadn't occurred to me before I read about it.

I will put a zip tie on my in-feed breaker, to secure it like the kit instructions specify, but you couldn't pull the breaker loose anyway without taking off the panel cover.

 

[gassprint1]

I think you're right, that those things pertain to situations other than residential. The breaker hold-down surprised me, and hadn't occurred to me before I read about it.

I will put a zip tie on my in-feed breaker, to secure it like the kit instructions specify, but you couldn't pull the breaker loose anyway without taking off the panel cover.

The last time i back fed my generator to an outside oulet to power the frig, furnace and tv..or whatever else was on those circuits, 1st thing i did was flip the main in the box and ALL of the other breakers because i choose what i want on the gen circuit. I don't need a lockout to remind me when I'm flipping them all off anyways. I sure don't need anything else inside a box to hold breakers in since they do take some effort to actually pop off the bar, tang or whatever the hot strip is called.

 

[Shadow01]

It's likely against code for the breaker panel cover to be off while it's in use and not being repaired.

So, as far as I'm concerned, you're argument doesn't matter. Who in their right mind would leave their breaker panel cover off for a long period of time, while the panel is charged and in the course of normal use?

I see them open in basements all the time. Some even lack the cover lying in sight.

 

[firecadet613]

I see them open in basements all the time. Some even lack the cover lying in sight.

So then that would be two code violations...

 

[Shadow01]

So then that would be two code violations...

Yes. I live in a county with no code enforcement or inspection process. The rule of thumb for electrical work is as long as the electric meter doesn’t eject into the poco technician's face when he installs it, the work passes inspection

 

[Kdf101]

We lose power several times a year here. I bought a 9000 watt generator that will run most things. Not the stove, but the house, fridges, water pump for the well, even the AC. Just have to turn off the water pump when the hot water heater is running, we are all electric. Best money I ever spent on the house was buying the Generlink.it hooks up at our meter, and when I plug the generator into it, it powers the whole house with 220 and automatically disconnects from the grid, so I don’t kill a lineman. When I disconnect it, it automatically connects back to the grid. It was expensive, almost as much as the generator, and WIN Energy had to come out and install it, but so worth it.

 

[gassprint1]

I see them open in basements all the time. Some even lack the cover lying in sight.

Guess I'm 1 of those big time code breakers..lol
I had my cover off probably 3 months while i updated the old wire and ran new wire in our house. I even got 1 step further and use 12/2 with 15amp breakers. 14/2 wire these days is just brittle and breaks when you do a hook bend.