Spiraling epidemic

[rambone]

But because drugs are no longer illegal is it ok? I am not trying to start a pissing match, I sincerely would like to know.

I am for decriminalizing lots of things that I am personally opposed to. Prostitution, drugs, gambling, tobacco, etc.

So to answer your question, I don't think its "ok" to start using heroin, but I don't want my opinion to be enforced by law.

I would definitely try to discourage people from touching heroin, while also being against making laws against it.

The cost of these ineffective laws is around $1,000 per year, per taxpayer. I want a refund.

 

[GunSlinger]

I won't pretend to know an answer as to whether or not to legalize the now illegal drugs. What I do believe is that if someone OD's and dies so be it. One less sorry-ass to deal with. If an addict wants help then pull out all the stops to make that happen...once. Those that commit crimes to get the money to feed their addiction should be offered the opportunity in prison to get clean. Should they fall back into drugs upon release (barring lifetime/death sentences) that's it, no more help and back to prison where they get to beat it cold turkey.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

I am for decriminalizing lots of things that I am personally opposed to. Prostitution, drugs, gambling, tobacco, etc.

So to answer your question, I don't think its "ok" to start using heroin, but I don't want my opinion to be enforced by law.

I would definitely try to discourage people from touching heroin, while also being against making laws against it.

The cost of these ineffective laws is around $1,000 per year, per taxpayer. I want a refund.

I meant is it ok for there to still be a welfare state supporting addicts even if drugs are legalized.

 

[jamil]

I can invision a day when all drugs are legal and can be purchased with an EBT card.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Every so often, I'll catch a bit on a few different radio shows from "south of Indy".

One is in the afternoons on WLW 700 out of Cincy, the other is 840 out of Louisville.

Turns out that the NKY area just across the river from Cincy has one of the worst areas in the country for Rx painkiller abuse / addiction. And that it is "replaced" cocaine / heroin. Those talking on these programs say that it will be cyclical: Crack down on the illicit opiates - and folks will seek out and abuse the Rx ones.

Crack down on the Rx side of things - and folks will seek out the illicit stuff.

It's cyclical...

 

[ghuns]

Narcan is being carried by an increasing number of police departments around the country. It's a drug that can reverse the effects of a heroin OD. There is only one company that manufactures it in a nasal spray and the price is going up dramatically as the demand for it spikes. Heard some public health do-gooder from Boston whining about the price increase and how they were having a hard time passing it out like candy to families of addicts.

 

[steveh_131]

Problem is the social costs of heroin addiction are largely not the product of criminalization. A heroin addict will rob and steal to buy legal heroin just the same as he does to buy illegal. The wave of babies born strung out won't be any different just cause the dope was bought legally.

This may be true, but can we approach it more objectively? Tell me this: Do you think that people would abuse something as dangerous as heroin if there were better options?

This study suggests that the use of drugs like heroin is fueled by crackdowns on better, cheaper, safer drugs.

And we should also consider this economically. Right now the prices of opiates are sky-high on the black market. And with the crack-down on pills, we can assume heroin will go even higher. Let's say that legalization brought the price down to 1/4 of where it is right now (a conservative estimate). The average addict would have to do 1/4 as much violent crime in order to get his next fix. Shoot, in a real free market you could probably earn enough money pan-handling for a day to get it.

So if we consider the violent crime from addicts dropping by 3/4, and the violent crime associated with the black market trafficking dropping to zero, wouldn't it be safe to assume that we would see a net drop in violent crime?

I meant is it ok for there to still be a welfare state supporting addicts even if drugs are legalized.

I certainly don't support a welfare state supporting addicts and I am quite sure that Rambone doesn't, either.

He makes a good point that the drug war is a net financial loss for us, even relative to the cost of welfare for drug addicts. Either we pay for their food stamps or we pay for their meals and cages. The meals and cages cost way more.

 

[maverick18]

This has definitely hit the small towns. My brother is a Corrections Officer in a small county jail and has said that heroin is now beating meth 2-1 on the addicts being brought into the jail. These guys are very dangerous to the understaffed officers at the jail. Dont know if they are going to curl up in a ball and convulse or take 3 taser shots to take them down. Scary stuff.

 

[88GT]

I'm good with that, with one condition. If you OD you don't get any assistance. No medics, police, doctors, rehab. Nothing. You choose to do it, you pay the consequences.

No assistance funded by taxpayers, right?

I don't know how you would deny emergency medical treatment. The call comes in, the run has to be made. You can't determine the cause of the overdose until you get there. Are you going to walk away after determining the individual overdosed on heroin in a fit of stupidity rather than mom's sleeping pills in a fit of suicidal tendencies resulting from depression? If you're going to exclude some people, you have to exclude them all. Or you have to make the service pay-per-use for everybody.

I'll be honest, excepting fire suppression and police response for criminal activity, I don't think we need any other emergency response funded by tax payers. And I would be fine with a pay-per-use charge for fire suppression as well. But that's a different discussion.

 

[rambone]

I meant is it ok for there to still be a welfare state supporting addicts even if drugs are legalized.

I don't want a welfare state supporting anyone. The most compassionate thing to do for an addict is to let them hit rock bottom without enabling them.

Typically people who support a welfare state don't refer to it as a welfare state.

 

[churchmouse]

I'm good with that, with one condition. If you OD you don't get any assistance. No medics, police, doctors, rehab. Nothing. You choose to do it, you pay the consequences.

This is the main issue (except the related crime) I have with the drug sub-culture. The OD's tie up valuable assets to try and save their worthless lives. Para Medics fire and LEO. To what end. Total waste.

Their shoot outs wound/kill innocents and themselves and again tie up valuable assets. This is a total drain on out local economy.

I agree, OD, suck wind.

 

[steveh_131]

This is the main issue (except the related crime) I have with the drug sub-culture. The OD's tie up valuable assets to try and save their worthless lives. Para Medics fire and LEO. To what end. Total waste.

Their shoot outs wound/kill innocents and themselves and again tie up valuable assets. This is a total drain on out local economy.

I agree, OD, suck wind.

I have the same complaint with diabetics who won't stop drinking pop.
Or heart patients chowing down on bacon.
Or irresponsible smokers burning down their homes.

If these things are truly a problem then maybe we should look at reforming the emergency response system, not criminalizing pop, bacon and smoking.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Pop, smoking, and transfats are already illegal in certain cities.

The man is already a step ahead of you.

 

[churchmouse]

I have the same complaint with diabetics who won't stop drinking pop.
Or heart patients chowing down on bacon.
Or irresponsible smokers burning down their homes.

If these things are truly a problem then maybe we should look at reforming the emergency response system, not criminalizing pop, bacon and smoking.

There is a good point in there but the drug issue is by far the absolute worst of the listed problems. The druggies of which I speak are just a total waste of oxygen. Yes, it is their choice to live this way. No, I will not preach at to or around them to change their ways. To do so is a complete waste of energy and time. Just like it is a complete waste of resources when they pitch over from OD or start throwing bullets at people. They put little to nothing into the system and take so much out.
For the most part those you mention (not all but far more by number) put something into the system. Your reference is not viable in this.

 

[ATOMonkey]

There is a good point in there but the drug issue is by far the absolute worst of the listed problems. The druggies of which I speak are just a total waste of oxygen. Yes, it is their choice to live this way. No, I will not preach at to or around them to change their ways. To do so is a complete waste of energy and time. Just like it is a complete waste of resources when they pitch over from OD or start throwing bullets at people. They put little to nothing into the system and take so much out.
For the most part those you mention (not all but far more by number) put something into the system. Your reference is not viable in this.

I'd argue that the same people would be just as bad off the drugs. Being a degenerate is a lifestyle choice. How you go about it is just a matter of personal preference.

 

[churchmouse]

I'd argue that the same people would be just as bad off the drugs. Being a degenerate is a lifestyle choice. How you go about it is just a matter of personal preference.

Absolutely. A lost soul is just that. Some are lost along the life path they are born into and some are just bad seed. The end result is a horrible burden on those of us who support the system.

 

[ATOMonkey]

So, there is no reason to pass a bunch of laws that we already know no one is going to follow and just end up costing a lot of money and oppressing a lot of people.

 

[steveh_131]

There is a good point in there but the drug issue is by far the absolute worst of the listed problems.

Not statistically.

[h=2]Number of deaths for leading causes of death[/h]

• Heart disease: 597,689
• Cancer: 574,743
• Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 138,080
• Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 129,476
• Accidents (unintentional injuries): 120,859
• Alzheimer's disease: 83,494
• Diabetes: 69,071
• Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,476
• Influenza and Pneumonia: 50,097
• Intentional self-harm (suicide): 38,364

For the most part those you mention (not all but far more by number) put something into the system. Your reference is not viable in this.

I know way more people who contribute nothing and abuse their bodies with food than people who contribute nothing and abuse their bodies with drugs.

Hard to find good statistics on that, though. It's too subjective. If emergency services can't keep up then let's improve emergency services. Or privatize some of them. I don't know. What I do know is that criminalization is not the answer.

 

[rambone]

There is a good point in there but the drug issue is by far the absolute worst of the listed problems.

Worst, how? Americans filling hospitals and consuming taxdollars in far greater numbers from eating like hogs and abusing themselves with cigarettes and alcohol.


(Source)

 

[Manatee]

I won't pretend to know an answer as to whether or not to legalize the now illegal drugs. What I do believe is that if someone OD's and dies so be it. One less sorry-ass to deal with. If an addict wants help then pull out all the stops to make that happen...once. Those that commit crimes to get the money to feed their addiction should be offered the opportunity in prison to get clean. Should they fall back into drugs upon release (barring lifetime/death sentences) that's it, no more help and back to prison where they get to beat it cold turkey.

Not everyone "takes" on the first rehab attempt, regardless of the drug. But, many can stay clean and sober for years after a couple of visits. I'd say do what it takes as long as it takes to get people clean.