State has stolen our property rights...

[buckstopshere]

I think to start, if you pay off your loan and own your house and property outright, you don't pay taxes. That would be a very, very small percentage of homeowners I'm guessing so it wouldn't impact the tax revenue stream much.

At the end of the day, slaves don't own land. That's the nature of being a slave.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Tennessee has had the solution for years-9.75 % sales tax and no property tax. Could this work for Indiana...?

Oh they have property taxes in Tennessee...they don't have an income tax though.

They have a big government too and a big government has gotta eat. It's appetite is insatiable.

 

[hornadylnl]

I could be wrong but I believe the indana state constitution has the funds being raised fer publik skoolin be with business taxes not personal property taxes.


BTW +1 to you sir!

Who do you think pays for business taxes?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Who do you think pays for business taxes?

As inxs so succinctly put it:

Its not really a problem of the type of tax its the amount....

Any talk of shifting the burden from one source to another; eliminating one form of taxation in favor of another is a complete waste of effort. We will all wind up paying for government, either directly or indirectly.

 

[Tydeeh22]

sure.. we have freedom.. at high tax rates. good job america. thumbs up to you

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Kirk, your like an enigma, wrapped in a riddle, surrounded by a conundrum. I cant guess where you will stand on any given issue. (dont say "on the right side" as tempting as that may be) I just wanted to share that cause my therapist says sharing is good for the voices in my head

Because I know about the Tennesse ammo tax?

 

[mydoghasfleas]

Who do you think pays for business taxes?

I was just stating what I am pretty sure the state constitution says. (going from memory, I will double check it if it really matters to you) Dosent mean I aggree with it.

But I will tell you unquestionably who should pay for schooling, the parents of children in the schools. And no others. I guess I am just cruel.


But to respond to your question of who I think pays the business taxes, that would be people who have the money to do business with them, and patron their store(customers) But I dont loose my house if I dont spend my money at places of business in indiana. My house/property would never be on the table if my liberty were not being threatened.

I have to pay my property taxes or loose what is the keystone of freedom and should never even be up for grabs in a free world, my house. My property. My already bought and stored effort. And since my property taxes have steadily increased at breakneck speeds, and relentless, never-ending rules and regulations, the future slavery of my children and yes eventually yours will be insured.

If you have a perpetual tax on property, with the repercusion of it being taken from you instead of not serviced, you never really had property. You have merely bought the "right" to be the steward it. And without property, we are not free. I can still be free if larrys oil change goes under. Even if I AM LARRY! Certain things are too dangerous to infringe upon, and property rights with the right to own property is one of them.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

But I will tell you unquestionably who should pay for schooling, the parents of children in the schools.

Tuition is free and open to all.

As the constitution says that the General Assembly shall provide for common schools, you cannot make the parents pay for children in the schools. The question is: what tax do you impose to fund the public schools?

 

[Bunnykid68]

Tuition is free and open to all.

As the constitution says that the General Assembly shall provide for common schools, you cannot make the parents pay for children in the schools. The question is: what tax do you impose to fund the public schools?

Any tax that affects everyone equally.

 

[88GT]

Here's the pertinent section of the Constitution since it's been hinted at several times in this thread:

Section 1. Knowledge and learning, generally diffused throughout a community, being essential to the preservation of a free government; it shall be the duty of the General Assembly to encourage, by all suitable means, moral, intellectual, scientific, and agricultural improvement; and to provide, by law, for a general and uniform system of Common Schools, wherein tuition shall be without charge, and equally open to all.
Section 2. The Common School fund shall consist of the Congressional Township fund, and the lands belonging thereto;
The Surplus Revenue fund;
The Saline fund and the lands belonging thereto;
The Bank Tax fund, and the fund arising from the one hundred and fourteenth section of the charter of the State Bank of Indiana;
The fund to be derived from the sale of County Seminaries, and the moneys and property heretofore held for such Seminaries; from the fines assessed for breaches of the penal laws of the State; and from all forfeitures which may accrue;
All lands and other estate which shall escheat to the State, for want of heirs or kindred entitled to the inheritance;
All lands that have been, or may hereafter be, granted to the State, where no special purpose is expressed in the grant, and the proceeds of the sales thereof; including the proceeds of the sales of the Swamp Lands, granted to the State of Indiana by the act of Congress of the twenty eighth of September, eighteen hundred and fifty, after deducting the expense of selecting and draining the same;
Taxes on the property of corporations, that may be assessed by the General Assembly for common school purposes.
Section 3. The principal of the Common School fund shall remain a perpetual fund, which may be increased, but shall never be diminished; and the income thereof shall be inviolably appropriated to the support of Common Schools, and to no other purpose whatever.
Section 4. The General Assembly shall invest, in some safe and profitable manner, all such portions of the Common School fund, as have not heretofore been entrusted to the several counties; and shall make provision, by law, for the distribution, among the several counties, of the interest thereof.
Section 5. If any county shall fail to demand its proportion of such interest, for Common School purposes, the same shall be reinvested, for the benefit of such county.
Section 6. The several counties shall be held liable for the preservation of so much of the said fund as may be entrusted to them, and for the payment of the annual interest thereon.
Section 7. All trust funds, held by the State, shall remain inviolate, and be faithfully and exclusively applied to the purposes for which the trust was created.
Section 8. There shall be a State Superintendent of Public Instruction, whose method of selection, tenure, duties and compensation shall be prescribed by law.

How would you fund constitutionally mandated public schools?

Would you then raise the state income tax?

I'm find with property taxes from a practical standpoint. It's the manner in which they are calculated, as well as the loophole related to the mathematical equations involved that bothers me. Property taxes are probably one of the better ways if handled properly. Even renters pay, and unlike a consumption tax, the disincentive factor isn't enough to keep people from participating in the revenue-generating act.

That would be more fair then charging people arbitrary amounts on their homes, but then you have the people who pay no state income tax.

Also, if you homeschool your children you can get your property taxes lowered. My parents have not had kids in school for some time now but they still have to pay, not to mention those that have no children ever.

Get rid of public schools seems like the appropriate answer though.

Think you meant to say "can't get your property taxes lowered." Right?

Getting rid of public schools would require a constitutional amendment and less people would go for it than are voting for Ron Paul right now.

.

Secession anyone?

This is stupid talk. On multiple levels, not the least because it won't solve the problem, and will create about a thousand more. I'd be willing to bet that the sovereign Nation of Indiana would rape you blind in taxes in order to function and survive without the live-sustaining teat of the federal government of the U.S. propping it up. You'd be begging for that oppressive tax structure of the feudal State of Indiana.

Memo: sovereignty doesn't define freedom.

It appears that property tax was the first form of taxation foisted upon our forebears by the founders of this country. Being an agrarian economy and property a good indicator of income and assets it worked pretty well. It must be remembered that direct taxes to the people where basically forbidden the government except for imposts and excises until 1916, so the Federal taxed the States a basic head tax which the States then took out of their property tax receipts.

Its not really a problem of the type of tax its the amount....

And a property tax wouldn't be a problem if the franchise were limited to those who own property (the way it originally was). At least then only the people being taxed had a say in who was put in office to control those taxes, not every Tom, Dick, and Harry who wanted something on someone else's dime.

 

[Bunnykid68]

88GT, I may be wrong but I thought if you home schooled you could get some kind of break on your property taxes. I may have just imagined that in my head too

Just did some searching and cannot find anything. Maybe it was another state or just a dream

 

[ATOMonkey]

I think that the first state to eliminate property tax is going to see a FLOOD of new residents and business.

Just look what happened when Indiana eliminated the inventory tax. How many distribution centers did they build almost immediately?

 

[88GT]

88GT, I may be wrong but I thought if you home schooled you could get some kind of break on your property taxes. I may have just imagined that in my head too

Just did some searching and cannot find anything. Maybe it was another state or just a dream

Not that I'm aware. They are bandying about an education credit for those who have to pay out of pocket for educational expenses, but there is no 'homeschool' exemption for property taxes. It would have to extend to those who enroll their children in private schools as well.

 

[jwfuhrman]

The people who really get ****ed are farmers. Most farmers don't just farm, they work a 2nd job, or own a small business. Take my family for example. We have a 300 acre farm, plus we own/operate a machine shop that sits on 3 acres with a 7500 sq ft building, plus our personal home which sits on a separate 3 acres.

We pay close to $15,000 a year in property taxes alone.

 

[traderdan]

Seems to me that the State has stolen our personal property rights out from under us by the imposition of the real estate tax.

With that tax, we never really "own" our property outright, even if we no longer have a loan, because we have an ongoing tax obligation. Don't pay your real estate taxes and eventually your property gets seized, sold and your taxes are paid. You may get what's left over (if any) but you are without your property. You can't even opt-out of the services provided via the taxes.

These rights were taken without a whimper, without a 'shot' fired (so to speak).

Your thoughts?

I knew of Hispanic families in Taos New Mexico that lost small farms that their families had owned and worked for nearly 300 years...Taos greatly expanded its city limits,and these folks with very limited cash flow could not pay.....This is not uncommon in our history.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I new of Hispanic families in Taos New Mexico that lost small farms that thir families had owned and worked for nearly 300 years...Taos greatly expanded its city limits,and these folks with very limited cash flow could not pay.....This is not uncommon in our history.

I have heard stories similar to this about retirees up in Michigan. When the urban sprawl caught up with them and their retirement places out in, what used to be the boondockes, they could no longer afford them because of the rising property taxes.

 

[ATOMonkey]

I also agree that we should eliminate all inherritence tax.

There are 2 farms in my wife's family that are going to be split up and sold when her grandparents pass. It's a shame.

 

[JettaKnight]

I think that the first state to eliminate property tax is going to see a FLOOD of new residents and business.

Taxes don't seem to be be significant factor in where people live. This can be seen by looking at the number of $500K+ earners in high taxed states like NJ. They have a huge incentive to move, but they don't.

Would you move to New York or California if there was no property tax? What about no income tax? Why aren't there more residents in Alaska than there are? They have no income tax and actual PAY you to live there.

Just look what happened when Indiana eliminated the inventory tax. How many distribution centers did they build almost immediately?

Businesses have much more of an incentive to move. Their primary motivation is profit. But, you need to consider the combination of taxes, transportation cost, labor cost, etc.

The problem with eliminating property tax is the need to then increase taxes elsewhere, but, make taxes high and there's a lot of unintended consequences. If the state sales tax is too high, then everyone will buy good via the internet from vendors in other states to avoid paying taxes. If you make the income tax high then it becomes attractive for Gov't to pay games with deductions and credits like the Feds have and we end up with a income tax code like the IRS (i.e. bloated!).

If you spread the taxes around, no one ever really adds up exactly what they pay, they just know that each piece seems reasonably acceptable for the most part.

As for land ownership, Isn't true that most land is ownership is classified as 'fee simple' and not allodial? Therefore, the gov't is within its right to charge taxes, enforce laws, eminent domain powers, etc.

 

[JettaKnight]

Not that I'm aware. They are bandying about an education credit for those who have to pay out of pocket for educational expenses, but there is no 'homeschool' exemption for property taxes. It would have to extend to those who enroll their children in private schools as well.

Is that the same $250 credit that most paid teachers take on their 1040?

 

[edporch]

Regardless of the history of property taxes, you don't own really own anything that you have to pay a recurring tax on or it will be confiscated by the government.

That's why the term "property tax" is my favorite oxymoron.