Still not sold on pistol caliber carbine

[bwframe]

There is no getting around the fact that anything less than a CNS hit with handgun ammo can take seconds to minutes to stop an attacker. Those seconds to minutes could be critical to the life of you and yours, especially in the event of a long gun carrying attacker or attackers in multiples.

Marginal shots with rifle ammo are much much more effective to incapacitate and stop the threat quickly.

 

[Thor]

SAE or Metric? Why limit your tool chest?

 

[KJQ6945]

SAE or Metric? Why limit your tool chest?

^^^This right here. I probably own more hammers than I do guns, and like the guns, they each have a purpose. Does most of INGO beat finish nails in with 3 pound sledge hammers, or what?

 

[Cameramonkey]

^^^This right here. I probably own more hammers than I do guns, and like the guns, they each have a purpose. Does most of INGO beat finish nails in with 3 pound sledge hammers, or what?

Wait. Are you saying I shouldnt use this to trim the fat from my steaks?

 

[Leadeye]

^^^This right here. I probably own more hammers than I do guns, and like the guns, they each have a purpose. Does most of INGO beat finish nails in with 3 pound sledge hammers, or what?

That's got to be a lot of hammers.

 

[JJFII]

Not to mention about 3 to 6 times the ammo capacity, extremely reduced reload time, and easily suppressed. Home defense I currently use my suppressed 300blk, once I get my stamp back for my yhm sidewinder I'll be running my 45acp ar pistol suppressed by the nightstand. 45 and 9mm have been proven effective in defensive carbines for a long time. I train multiple times weekly with my pistols (glock 17 and 22) and still prefer a carbine when I consider being woke up in the middle of the night bouncing in and out of rem sleep. Carbines are easy to be good with, there is a reason a lot of us gravitate towards them in competition and it is not just training. I can put my CX4 in just about anyone's hand and have them holding their own in a steel match with an hour or less of training. Pistols can take a long time to train some one to be proficient with. Home defense shouldn't be about being macho and proving how good you are with a hard to master weapon, it should be about choosing a weapon that is versatile, easy to use, and reliable.

Think about how many times you've done stupid things in the morning after a long night of sleep, but before your coffee? Now compare that to how many stupid mistakes you make once your mind clears after you have been awake for an hour. Your mind will not go from rest to full alert when that window breaks, you'll have an adjustment period. A carbine is so much easier to use during that adjustment period. When considering home defense I also think of a suppressor as an absolute necessity. There is no reason to lose more of my hearing or cause irreparable damage to my wife and daughter, especially being that that is what I'm trying to prevent. Suppressed pistols take even more practice and specialized sights.

I think that PCC's are brilliant arms to have in the inventory, and honestly I can't get enough of them. The more I compete with one the deeper the hook sets. I love that I can set up the steel pit at my local club and run close range defensive drills over and over on steel vs. running a rifle on silhouettes and having to score each drill individually. I can pick up factory 9mm for dirt cheap when compared to 300blk, 223, 7.62x39 and I even save a little shooting white box 45acp when I pull the ar out.

all this and a bucket of wings.

 

[JJFII]

There is no getting around the fact that anything less than a CNS hit with handgun ammo can take seconds to minutes to stop an attacker. Those seconds to minutes could be critical to the life of you and yours, especially in the event of a long gun carrying attacker or attackers in multiples.

Marginal shots with rifle ammo are much much more effective to incapacitate and stop the threat quickly.

yes and no. Once again the PCC is not about detracting from the benefits of a rifle round. Its a tool that is quickly becoming the go-to for close range use.

Do you aim for center mass on a threat wearing a plate carrier?

Why not?

So you would agree there are many tools in the tool bag that conflict with standard combat training. Well the PCC is another tool.

 

[K_W]

Not to mention about 3 to 6 times the ammo capacity, extremely reduced reload time, and easily suppressed.

yes and no. Once again the PCC is not about detracting from the benefits of a rifle round. Its a tool that is quickly becoming the go-to for close range use.

This is why I have all but replaced my 870 12ga pump with a PCC for travel and home defense. Not only can my wife use it safely and effectively, but it has a smaller footprint, 3-5x the amount of rounds in the weapon, less complicated operation (pump vs semi), faster followup shots, fast and simple reloads, the same lowered risk of rounds escaping the confines of the home... and the increased likelihood of us walking away with functional ears afterwards.

That said, if I found myself aware of someone in my home with my collection of arms at the ready, I would probably still choose the 870 for the simple fact that a single shot of 00 would put the dude down the moment he came through my bedroom door... but for nearly any other scenario, I'd pick the PCC

 

[KJQ6945]

Wait. Are you saying I shouldnt use this to trim the fat from my steaks?

I believe the ingo INGO standard is the Farm Boss, not some puny little, underpowered, limb saw. What if your steak is wearing body armor?

 

[KJQ6945]

That's got to be a lot of hammers.

We all have collections. I like hammers, you like Colts. Well, I like Colts too, but hammers are cheaper, so I have a lot.

 

[hopper68]

[video=youtube;S1AHNWgrFnY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1AHNWgrFnY[/video]

 

[Cameramonkey]

I miss my AR9. Its in the shop getting fixed.

 

[nate77]

I miss my AR9. Its in the shop getting fixed.

Isnt your ar9 a psa? What is wrong with it?

My psa has been flawless so far.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Isnt your ar9 a psa? What is wrong with it?

My psa has been flawless so far.

Yes. Mine ran flawless as Ling as I only fed it round nose fmj. Plated THP or flat point and it was a hot mess. Jams every other round.

 

[nate77]

Yes. Mine ran flawless as Ling as I only fed it round nose fmj. Plated THP or flat point and it was a hot mess. Jams every other round.

I only run rounds nose rounds, but with these guns having no feed ramp, I could see flat nosed rounds causing jams.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I only run rounds nose rounds, but with these guns having no feed ramp, I could see flat nosed rounds causing jams.

If they cant sort it out, I'll have AllenM Modify my bolt and install one of these. (you have to machine down the bottom bolt lug so it doesnt hit the ramp)

https://www.rainierarms.com/shooting-innovations-ar-15-9mm-ramped-barrel/

 

[Trigger Time]

Some of you I'm sure can make head shots under stress all day long so this may not apply to you. But if you are using a PCC for home defense you better hope the bad guy isnt wearing body armor. I dont know the statistics but I bet maybe its 1% or less of bad guys in home invasions wear body armor and we cant prepare for every scenario or wed have to come out of our bedroom looking like a bomb squad tech but I still believe FOR ME a rifle is my best home defense weapon after I've deployed my pistol to get my rifle. I keep it suppressed and i still keep magnified ear pro on it ready to go, because its gonna suck without it inside even suppressed. It takes an extra 1 to 2 seconds to put it on and turn the dial on. Then I can hear the bad guy or bad guys talking or moving better too. Then I have a rifle so if I need to make sure I hit that armed intruder who's trying to kill me through a wall or a fridge or whatever he is using as cover or concealment to fire at me from (I'm talking a known threat engaging me, not shooting an unidentified target) then I'm gonna ruin his plans.
Can I guarentee a small caliber PCC is going to do that? No.
Sure it will shoot through some studs and drywall but what if your walls are made of hard plaster? Both sides of an appliance or furnature that has metal reinforcement inside? No probably not, or not and still stop him.
Yeah we are going worse case scenario that probably would never happen but that would suck if it didnt and just by grabbing a different gun you could have prevented you and your family from dying.

I'm a PCC fan for certain things but if I'm seeking out a bad guy ALONE and without a team behind me then I want maximum firepower.

If I have to shoot someone in self defense, I dont give a flying **** if the cops take my $3k+ rifle for investigating and forensics for whatever length of time they need. I'll pull an identical one out of my safe and have it for his buddies that wanna come avenge him. I know some people dont carry or use their best guns for this reason. Sorry but that line of thinking is stupid to me. You can do what YOU want, I'm not saying someone else is stupid, in just saying for me to do it would be stupid. I want the best for defending the best (me and my family). 2nd best isnt good enough

 

[JJFII]

Some of you I'm sure can make head shots under stress all day long so this may not apply to you. But if you are using a PCC for home defense you better hope the bad guy isnt wearing body armor. I dont know the statistics but I bet maybe its 1% or less of bad guys in home invasions wear body armor and we cant prepare for every scenario or wed have to come out of our bedroom looking like a bomb squad tech but I still believe FOR ME a rifle is my best home defense weapon after I've deployed my pistol to get my rifle. I keep it suppressed and i still keep magnified ear pro on it ready to go, because its gonna suck without it inside even suppressed. It takes an extra 1 to 2 seconds to put it on and turn the dial on. Then I can hear the bad guy or bad guys talking or moving better too. Then I have a rifle so if I need to make sure I hit that armed intruder who's trying to kill me through a wall or a fridge or whatever he is using as cover or concealment to fire at me from (I'm talking a known threat engaging me, not shooting an unidentified target) then I'm gonna ruin his plans.
Can I guarentee a small caliber PCC is going to do that? No.
Sure it will shoot through some studs and drywall but what if your walls are made of hard plaster? Both sides of an appliance or furnature that has metal reinforcement inside? No probably not, or not and still stop him.
Yeah we are going worse case scenario that probably would never happen but that would suck if it didnt and just by grabbing a different gun you could have prevented you and your family from dying.

I'm a PCC fan for certain things but if I'm seeking out a bad guy ALONE and without a team behind me then I want maximum firepower.

If I have to shoot someone in self defense, I dont give a flying **** if the cops take my $3k+ rifle for investigating and forensics for whatever length of time they need. I'll pull an identical one out of my safe and have it for his buddies that wanna come avenge him. I know some people dont carry or use their best guns for this reason. Sorry but that line of thinking is stupid to me. You can do what YOU want, I'm not saying someone else is stupid, in just saying for me to do it would be stupid. I want the best for defending the best (me and my family). 2nd best isnt good enough

I've heard this before and I agree to a certain extent. Again, you are not completely sticking to reality to justify your choice, but your choice is 100% valid for sure.

An armed person entering your home isnt going to alert you before hand. The unarmed drug addict isnt thinking about a fire fight with you, he's looking to bash in ...grab an item and run away.

An Armed person entering your home is planning on a fire fight and planning on encountering you. I can guarantee this will happen in one of several ways.
1- Distraction at the front while attack from the rear. Knock Knock at 9pm...excuse me my car broke down... Are you running for your semi-auto Rifle every time the door bell rings?
2- Knock Knock home invasion... One person knocks while 4 wait on the sides of the door, as the door opens its kicked into whoever is opening it and now 5 armed guys are inside your home WITH A HOSTAGE...
3- Sleepytime invasion. The worst and by far the most prevalent. They are watching your house. They know the routine. They know what lights on and what lights off mean what room you are in. They are in the shadows listening for the shower, they know how to open that farthest window from the shower without making any noise. If you are in the shower even better. If you are asleep, you will still NOT hear the window opening. Their primary target is getting to you FIRST. 75% of the time the homeowners are woken up by the person in the room, normally beating on the male to subdue them. If there is no male the female is awakened by a male on top of her.

The "did I just hear something" robbery is normally drug addicts dashing and running, Kids in the garage or outside stealing your car radio, or just a random dumbass... not someone you are going to get into a rifle fire fight with when they are hiding behind the frig...

None of this means you are wrong to have a rifle handy. It just to show what you think and what you plan for are not always what criminals plan for. Over prepared is a good thing and a rifle is a good thing all the way...its just not the only thing nor it is the minimum thing.

raise your hand if you carry your pistol around your home at night... ----> Mine stays at my hip all the time and sits on my night stand when I am asleep. I dont care about a noise in the house as long as my dog doesnt care. I hear something and I look at him... his demeanor determines my next action.

How many of you actually...truly... carry a semi-auto Rifle around the house.... If someone is going to come after you...they are not going to allow you the time to get into that safe.

 

[Trigger Time]

Right that's why further preparation is a must. I do have a couple advanced warning methods that typically do work but I have to be prepared incase they do not.
I have kids so I cant be as loose with stashing guns as I'd like but I do have guns in some key locations but locked up but in ways I can quickly access them.
My primary pistol is on me 24/7. Even in the shower I use a fast magnet. When I'm in bed it is directly next to me (so I shouldn't say 24/7 because it's technically not on me).
I've addressed this all before on ingo so it's nothing new especialy to people who personaly know me. I'm not a sheep. If someone wants to ambush my home it will most likely be the worst decision of their life. If they try to memorize my schedule good luck, I dont have a setschedule. I'm retired and home more than not. Home Is the most likely place for people to be attacked and need their guns.
I try to plan for likely and unlikely scenarios. Skilled robbers arent coming through the doors and most likely not when someone is hone either unless they dont have a choice. We have had several violent home invasions in Indianapolis and the surrounding areas in recent years and this year too. Some were drug related but criminals are violent a lot of times and shouldn't be underestimated. A wild animal backed into a corner with no escape is the most dangerous kind.

 

[Ggreen]

How many b&e's are performed by armored robbers? Mikey meth mouth would sell the armor to get his fix long before wearing it while slinking through your window. If you have a fire team c4ing the front door popping flash bangs wearing body armor... Wtf are you keeping in your home? Center mass with an Underwood loaded SD 9mm or of a 16" barrel will punch 99.999% of home Invader's tickets. I'm certainly not running steel core 5.56 in an HD rifle anyway.