Still not sold on pistol caliber carbine

[daddyusmaximus]

First off, not all "pistol" calibers are equal. Most auto calibers pale in power when compared to the big rimmed revolver rounds.

With the AR platform, (or other semi-autos) I'm not sold on them. They only come in weak auto based calibers like 9mm, and the like. I do love that you get the usability, and accuracy of the carbine. I love the AR platform itself, but with the weak cartridge, it doesn't really up the game unless you put multiple rounds on target. Then again, the good thing is that's pretty easy with these things.

In a lever gun they work pretty well because the most popular two, the .357 mag, and .44 mag, are very potent out of a carbine. You can get even bigger handgun cartridges in them like .454 Casull, and .500 S&W. Once again, these are rounds you can't get in an AR based platform, or any semi-auto platform I know of.

I love my .44 mag lever gun. I'd feel comfortable going up against anything on this continent with it... short of maybe an angry charging polar bear, though I'm sure if I kept my composure (unlikely) it could handle one.

 

[Bfish]

I have them because they suppress easy and are cheaper to shoot than say a 300blk. Other than that I don't see "a use" for them per say. They are range toys. I do keep a suppressed one in a backpack though from time to time.

 

[JJFII]

Not sure if this should go in long guns or pistols but I am just still not sold on the pistol caliber carbine and all the hype surrounding the trend. I have fired the keltec and the high point, and was not really impressed. Improved accuracy over a pistol, but still a pistol round. I completely respect a full auto sub machine gun like mp5, ump45, mpx etc. but why buy a semi auto? Why buy especially for the high prices? Maybe someone with more experience can explain the pou better.

I heard this same argument for why buy an AR15, because its not an M16.
I heard this argument for not using a 9mm, when a .45 is the smallest handgun capable of killing a man... this was proven in WWII. All joking aside...

I was in the same boat as you BOWTIE72.

For me it was a full sized handgun on my hip and a full sized rifle on my back. PCC were 100% STUPID kid stuff. My sidearm was a last resort, a wild dog control tool ... a tool to be used when the rifle was done. Having a PCC is just a limp, weak rifle and a little bit better pistol.

Then I ran a shoothouse with one and had a long talk with an Instructor who is no longer with us. This is what I found out and why I moved to a PCC as a PRIMARY long arm.

I'm over 50. I'm not getting a call from DELTA SEAL TEAM SAR 25...they need to me to come help them... its not happening. Yeah I got the gear..yeah I got the training..yeah I know the lingo...No its NOT happening.

In reality when we are talking about a defensive firearm used under the 2nd A...we are talking about personal crime and local events. If you have visions of joining a squad and hunting commies, or whoever, sure its possible, but at that time so much other stuff would have to happen, you will probably have a full M4A1 with M203 handed to you. This idea that when the entire society breaks down, you will only have access to your safe is kinda foolish. Sure at first that is all you will have, but as time goes on and if that level of event actually happens... your safe contents will be meaningless. The firearm you will have will probably come from a Military or local LEA armory.

So lets talk about the larger more close to actual real event. A Hurricane, a virus out break, a collapse of the economy. These are short term situations where a firearm is needed, but is a long range high powered rifle needed? Are you going to be engaged in a fire fight with a threat 250, 350, 500 yards away..or are you more likely to be in a fight with someone 100 yards or less? For some people who have a HUGE farm land or large ranch to protect, sure yes you need a rifle caliber semiautomatic on hand.

But what about people who live inside a small housing tract? I own 3/4 an acre little small plot of land inside a neighborhood. At best I am going to take on threats across the street or at the front door.
During these close quarters situation the pecking order on a firearms usefulness scale is much much different than what the average Troop, military guy needs. A PCC fits the need nicely.

Your sidearm and carbine use the same magazine and ammo. Your carbine has better performance than your sidearm. You gain velocity and lose recoil. You gain quick follow ups and accuracy. While not yet invented when I took my training; a binary trigger can be very nice thing to have. I dont, but some love it. While shotguns are certainly more destructive then a PCC, you lose maneuverability and limit your space for ammo with shells. Even a 410 shotgun hits harder than a 9mm, but at what cost in an extended fire fight?

The choice to use a PCC is not about detracting from a rifle caliber. A rifle is superior in most cases. Its also not about power, its about maneuverability and fluidity of motion and economy of motion.

I would have LMAO at a PCC while in the military...that is complete stupid for a battlefield. Actually many guys said that about the MP5. Its a specific situation firearm...not for general use.
Standing and shooting at paper targets, a PCC is just a fun toy. Its not even fun trying to hit a gong 250 yards away, yeah you can do it, but you realize its all closer to luck then real skill...oh boy I heard a ding!!

The PCC is a specific tool used for a real world likely event that will help aid you and your immediately neighbors in a limited SHTF event.

If you foresee long range threat targets, a PCC is very very foolish. That doesn't mean a rifle caliber is foolish for a close range threat. Its not a "this or that" dichotomy. Its a choice for a specific likely event.

A rifle caliber is fine for the same event a PCC is good for. A PCC just has a better economy to the user without a too great sacrifice in effective use.

 

[Ggreen]

I heard this same argument for why buy an AR15, because its not an M16.
I heard this argument for not using a 9mm, when a .45 is the smallest handgun capable of killing a man... this was proven in WWII. All joking aside...

I was in the same boat as you BOWTIE72.

For me it was a full sized handgun on my hip and a full sized rifle on my back. PCC were 100% STUPID kid stuff. My sidearm was a last resort, a wild dog control tool ... a tool to be used when the rifle was done. Having a PCC is just a limp, weak rifle and a little bit better pistol.

Then I ran a shoothouse with one and had a long talk with an Instructor who is no longer with us. This is what I found out and why I moved to a PCC as a PRIMARY long arm.

I'm over 50. I'm not getting a call from DELTA SEAL TEAM SAR 25...they need to me to come help them... its not happening. Yeah I got the gear..yeah I got the training..yeah I know the lingo...No its NOT happening.

In reality when we are talking about a defensive firearm used under the 2nd A...we are talking about personal crime and local events. If you have visions of joining a squad and hunting commies, or whoever, sure its possible, but at that time so much other stuff would have to happen, you will probably have a full M4A1 with M203 handed to you. This idea that when the entire society breaks down, you will only have access to your safe is kinda foolish. Sure at first that is all you will have, but as time goes on and if that level of event actually happens... your safe contents will be meaningless. The firearm you will have will probably come from a Military or local LEA armory.

So lets talk about the larger more close to actual real event. A Hurricane, a virus out break, a collapse of the economy. These are short term situations where a firearm is needed, but is a long range high powered rifle needed? Are you going to be engaged in a fire fight with a threat 250, 350, 500 yards away..or are you more likely to be in a fight with someone 100 yards or less? For some people who have a HUGE farm land or large ranch to protect, sure yes you need a rifle caliber semiautomatic on hand.

But what about people who live inside a small housing tract? I own 3/4 an acre little small plot of land inside a neighborhood. At best I am going to take on threats across the street or at the front door.
During these close quarters situation the pecking order on a firearms usefulness scale is much much different than what the average Troop, military guy needs. A PCC fits the need nicely.

Your sidearm and carbine use the same magazine and ammo. Your carbine has better performance than your sidearm. You gain velocity and lose recoil. You gain quick follow ups and accuracy. While not yet invented when I took my training; a binary trigger can be very nice thing to have. I dont, but some love it. While shotguns are certainly more destructive then a PCC, you lose maneuverability and limit your space for ammo with shells. Even a 410 shotgun hits harder than a 9mm, but at what cost in an extended fire fight?

The choice to use a PCC is not about detracting from a rifle caliber. A rifle is superior in most cases. Its also not about power, its about maneuverability and fluidity of motion and economy of motion.

I would have LMAO at a PCC while in the military...that is complete stupid for a battlefield. Actually many guys said that about the MP5. Its a specific situation firearm...not for general use.
Standing and shooting at paper targets, a PCC is just a fun toy. Its not even fun trying to hit a gong 250 yards away, yeah you can do it, but you realize its all closer to luck then real skill...oh boy I heard a ding!!

The PCC is a specific tool used for a real world likely event that will help aid you and your immediately neighbors in a limited SHTF event.

If you foresee long range threat targets, a PCC is very very foolish. That doesn't mean a rifle caliber is foolish for a close range threat. Its not a "this or that" dichotomy. Its a choice for a specific likely event.

A rifle caliber is fine for the same event a PCC is good for. A PCC just has a better economy to the user without a too great sacrifice in effective use.

All that... And you can shoot more competitions with a PCC than you can with rifle calibers. Every weekend there are 3 different dynamic shooting events in driving range of central Indiana where PCC is allowed, once or twice a month maybe, there is an event that lets you shoot rifle calibers on a dynamic field where the shooter isn't static.

 

[KJQ6945]

First off, not all "pistol" calibers are equal. Most auto calibers pale in power when compared to the big rimmed revolver rounds.

With the AR platform, (or other semi-autos) I'm not sold on them. They only come in weak auto based calibers like 9mm, and the like. I do love that you get the usability, and accuracy of the carbine. I love the AR platform itself, but with the weak cartridge, it doesn't really up the game unless you put multiple rounds on target. Then again, the good thing is that's pretty easy with these things.

In a lever gun they work pretty well because the most popular two, the .357 mag, and .44 mag, are very potent out of a carbine. You can get even bigger handgun cartridges in them like .454 Casull, and .500 S&W. Once again, these are rounds you can't get in an AR based platform, or any semi-auto platform I know of.

I love my .44 mag lever gun. I'd feel comfortable going up against anything on this continent with it... short of maybe an angry charging polar bear, though I'm sure if I kept my composure (unlikely) it could handle one.

.45 acp rings the steel louder than a a 55gr 5.56, at 430 yards. I'll bet it still hurts.

Are there better options? Of course. Every tool has a purpose, and every hammer has a nail.
At distance, give me a rifle. In a hallway, I'll choose a pistol caliber SBR every time.

 

[KJQ6945]

I heard this same argument for why buy an AR15, because its not an M16.
I heard this argument for not using a 9mm, when a .45 is the smallest handgun capable of killing a man... this was proven in WWII. All joking aside...

I was in the same boat as you BOWTIE72.

For me it was a full sized handgun on my hip and a full sized rifle on my back. PCC were 100% STUPID kid stuff. My sidearm was a last resort, a wild dog control tool ... a tool to be used when the rifle was done. Having a PCC is just a limp, weak rifle and a little bit better pistol.

Then I ran a shoothouse with one and had a long talk with an Instructor who is no longer with us. This is what I found out and why I moved to a PCC as a PRIMARY long arm.

I'm over 50. I'm not getting a call from DELTA SEAL TEAM SAR 25...they need to me to come help them... its not happening. Yeah I got the gear..yeah I got the training..yeah I know the lingo...No its NOT happening.

In reality when we are talking about a defensive firearm used under the 2nd A...we are talking about personal crime and local events. If you have visions of joining a squad and hunting commies, or whoever, sure its possible, but at that time so much other stuff would have to happen, you will probably have a full M4A1 with M203 handed to you. This idea that when the entire society breaks down, you will only have access to your safe is kinda foolish. Sure at first that is all you will have, but as time goes on and if that level of event actually happens... your safe contents will be meaningless. The firearm you will have will probably come from a Military or local LEA armory.

So lets talk about the larger more close to actual real event. A Hurricane, a virus out break, a collapse of the economy. These are short term situations where a firearm is needed, but is a long range high powered rifle needed? Are you going to be engaged in a fire fight with a threat 250, 350, 500 yards away..or are you more likely to be in a fight with someone 100 yards or less? For some people who have a HUGE farm land or large ranch to protect, sure yes you need a rifle caliber semiautomatic on hand.

But what about people who live inside a small housing tract? I own 3/4 an acre little small plot of land inside a neighborhood. At best I am going to take on threats across the street or at the front door.
During these close quarters situation the pecking order on a firearms usefulness scale is much much different than what the average Troop, military guy needs. A PCC fits the need nicely.

Your sidearm and carbine use the same magazine and ammo. Your carbine has better performance than your sidearm. You gain velocity and lose recoil. You gain quick follow ups and accuracy. While not yet invented when I took my training; a binary trigger can be very nice thing to have. I dont, but some love it. While shotguns are certainly more destructive then a PCC, you lose maneuverability and limit your space for ammo with shells. Even a 410 shotgun hits harder than a 9mm, but at what cost in an extended fire fight?

The choice to use a PCC is not about detracting from a rifle caliber. A rifle is superior in most cases. Its also not about power, its about maneuverability and fluidity of motion and economy of motion.

I would have LMAO at a PCC while in the military...that is complete stupid for a battlefield. Actually many guys said that about the MP5. Its a specific situation firearm...not for general use.
Standing and shooting at paper targets, a PCC is just a fun toy. Its not even fun trying to hit a gong 250 yards away, yeah you can do it, but you realize its all closer to luck then real skill...oh boy I heard a ding!!

The PCC is a specific tool used for a real world likely event that will help aid you and your immediately neighbors in a limited SHTF event.

If you foresee long range threat targets, a PCC is very very foolish. That doesn't mean a rifle caliber is foolish for a close range threat. Its not a "this or that" dichotomy. Its a choice for a specific likely event.

A rifle caliber is fine for the same event a PCC is good for. A PCC just has a better economy to the user without a too great sacrifice in effective use.

I have not agreed with you many times, but I think you nailed it here. Well done sir! Like you, I'm over 50, i'm not getting called back up.
To me, weapons fill a distance niche, somewhere between closet range and 1000 yards. This is how the safe is loaded, short range to the front, longer range to the back. One side is rifle caliber, one side is pistol caliber.

 

[JJFII]

.45 acp rings the steel louder than a a 55gr 5.56, at 430 yards. I'll bet it still hurts.

Are there better options? Of course. Every tool has a purpose, and every hammer has a nail.
At distance, give me a rifle. In a hallway, I'll choose a pistol caliber SBR every time.

just for fun... a buddy and I had to see just how much louder a 5.56 was over a 9mm in the dead of the night without ear-pro. We did this 1 month apart as to not freak the neighbors out too much. I stood in my hallway and sot my 5.56 AR while he was outside..dogs 5 doors down started barking and I couldnt hear for 2 hours. The next month he did it with his Keltec 9mm. I heard a slight "pop" while standing at the end of my driveway. He said it hurt his ears but he was fine.

I am sure a fire fight at 2am is going to deafen you no matter what non-silenced firearm you use. But a 5.56 is rupturing ear drums for sure.

 

[Leadeye]

It's much easier to cast and shoot pistol caliber bullets for a carbine, more shots for less dollars.

 

[KJQ6945]

just for fun... a buddy and I had to see just how much louder a 5.56 was over a 9mm in the dead of the night without ear-pro. We did this 1 month apart as to not freak the neighbors out too much. I stood in my hallway and sot my 5.56 AR while he was outside..dogs 5 doors down started barking and I couldnt hear for 2 hours. The next month he did it with his Keltec 9mm. I heard a slight "pop" while standing at the end of my driveway. He said it hurt his ears but he was fine.

I am sure a fire fight at 2am is going to deafen you no matter what non-silenced firearm you use. But a 5.56 is rupturing ear drums for sure.

Agreed, anything that comes out of the safe at 2am, is suppressed. If someone is inside the house, it will be pistol caliber.

 

[1775usmarine]

….. is a fun gun to shoot.

Mine has gone with me on all my range trips.

 

[rkwhyte2]

Mine has gone with me on all my range trips.

Yep my 9mm SBR(RRA AR-9) is a great gun and wonderful fun at the range.

 

[bwframe]

PCC is great to shoot competitions and train with. You should set up your PCC to mimic your real rifle.

If there is any chance a long gun will be brought into use for self defense, my rifle needs to shoot rifle caliber bullets. I already have a pistol caliber pistol on on my hip that will do 90% of what a PCC will do.

If you need to use your rifle for self defense, it needs to work like a rifle. Pistol bullets can be slow medicine, even when effective. Rifle bullet hits typically are not slow working.

Why do you think they won't let us hunt deer with 9mm?

 

[1775usmarine]

With a trs25 on my ruger pc 50yd shooting nets me a pie plate all day with little effort.

 

[Ggreen]

PCC is great to shoot competitions and train with. You should set up your PCC to mimic your real rifle.

If there is any chance a long gun will be brought into use for self defense, my rifle needs to shoot rifle caliber bullets. I already have a pistol caliber pistol on on my hip that will do 90% of what a PCC will do.

If you need to use your rifle for self defense, it needs to work like a rifle. Pistol bullets can be slow medicine, even when effective. Rifle bullet hits typically are not slow working.

Why do you think they won't let us hunt deer with 9mm?

They will let you hunt with a 40sw pistol. And I know a number of patrol officers who attest to the rounds effectiveness on deer.

 

[JHB]

They will let you hunt with a 40sw pistol. And I know a number of patrol officers who attest to the rounds effectiveness on deer.

You better check the DNR web site on that one.

 

[Leadeye]

I think it's 10mm that's deer legal here.

 

[JHB]

As of the latest regs 40S&W and 10 mm are approved> I had the regs. from a couple of years ago.

 

[Ggreen]

As of the latest regs 40S&W and 10 mm are approved> I had the regs. from a couple of years ago.

It was legal last year as well. Lots of guys down south use pcc 9mm to take out hogs pretty effectively

 

[JHB]

The only problem I have read about is the bullets not holding up to higher velocity's. I looked for the article but can't find it. They expand faster and don't penetrate as deep. Hopefully one of the bullet manufactures will come up with something for deer and hogs.

As far as home defense I think they would be better than a hand gun in the hands of someone that is not very proficient with one. At about 7 lbs. they are about the same weight as a shot gun with a lot less recoil.

 

[Ggreen]

The only problem I have read about is the bullets not holding up to higher velocity's. I looked for the article but can't find it. They expand faster and don't penetrate as deep. Hopefully one of the bullet manufactures will come up with something for deer and hogs.

As far as home defense I think they would be better than a hand gun in the hands of someone that is not very proficient with one. At about 7 lbs. they are about the same weight as a shot gun with a lot less recoil.

Not to mention about 3 to 6 times the ammo capacity, extremely reduced reload time, and easily suppressed. Home defense I currently use my suppressed 300blk, once I get my stamp back for my yhm sidewinder I'll be running my 45acp ar pistol suppressed by the nightstand. 45 and 9mm have been proven effective in defensive carbines for a long time. I train multiple times weekly with my pistols (glock 17 and 22) and still prefer a carbine when I consider being woke up in the middle of the night bouncing in and out of rem sleep. Carbines are easy to be good with, there is a reason a lot of us gravitate towards them in competition and it is not just training. I can put my CX4 in just about anyone's hand and have them holding their own in a steel match with an hour or less of training. Pistols can take a long time to train some one to be proficient with. Home defense shouldn't be about being macho and proving how good you are with a hard to master weapon, it should be about choosing a weapon that is versatile, easy to use, and reliable.

Think about how many times you've done stupid things in the morning after a long night of sleep, but before your coffee? Now compare that to how many stupid mistakes you make once your mind clears after you have been awake for an hour. Your mind will not go from rest to full alert when that window breaks, you'll have an adjustment period. A carbine is so much easier to use during that adjustment period. When considering home defense I also think of a suppressor as an absolute necessity. There is no reason to lose more of my hearing or cause irreparable damage to my wife and daughter, especially being that that is what I'm trying to prevent. Suppressed pistols take even more practice and specialized sights.

I think that PCC's are brilliant arms to have in the inventory, and honestly I can't get enough of them. The more I compete with one the deeper the hook sets. I love that I can set up the steel pit at my local club and run close range defensive drills over and over on steel vs. running a rifle on silhouettes and having to score each drill individually. I can pick up factory 9mm for dirt cheap when compared to 300blk, 223, 7.62x39 and I even save a little shooting white box 45acp when I pull the ar out.