Tactical Response student injured in class

[Fenway]

Am hoping this link works. James Yeager posted a note on his FB page that a student sent a 7.62x39 through his foot while transitioning to a pistol. First injury in 15,000 students

Try the link and see if you can read about. James explains what happened and lessons learned!

Indiana Gun Owners (INGO) | Facebook


Cliffs - Student did not engage safety on AK and transitioned to pistol.... AK trigger got hung up on some gear

 

[John Galt]

A lot of interesting comments on that link regarding transition training.

 

[Fenway]

Yes, I noticed that... makes for some good discussion! Wonder does INGO think?

A lot of interesting comments on that link regarding transition training.

 

[tv1217]

Ouch, is that bone sticking out by the toenail?

 

[VUPDblue]

I like Rob Pinkus' comments

 

[ravenwoodranch]

Wow. I think he learned a valueble lesson.

 

[Shay]

it was 7.62. He only has a slight break in the bone for his big toe, nothing serious.

This is quoted from that FB thread.

 

[cedartop]

Kudos on James for puttin it out there. On the other hand, I can't believe I am going to say this, but I wholeheartedly agree with Marty and Pinky. When we do transitions, it is with a rifle we just shot dry.

 

[Shay]

An empty or malfunctioning rifle are two reasons of many you might transition to your pistol.

If you are in a combative situation trying to retain a rifle on a sling, it might not be empty so do you safe it up before transitioning to your pistol?

It's an interesting discussion topic for sure.

 

[cedartop]

An empty or malfunctioning rifle are two reasons of many you might transition to your pistol.

If you are in a combative situation trying to retain a rifle on a sling, it might not be empty so do you safe it up before transitioning to your pistol?

It's an interesting discussion topic for sure.

That is a much more interesting point then the one james posted about just needing a free hand. In that case, there is no urgency, so it shouldnt be a big deal to safe it under less stressfull situations. To your point of combatives, nice, I would have to respond with, I am planning on using my rifle as part of those combatives. Some of the differences we will have here stem from the fact, that unless you are an "operator" I believe a 2 point sling is much more useful and practical than a one point. Although I guess we should save that discussion for another time.

 

[Shay]

Sure, there's plenty combatively you can do with the rifle on the sling, but getting a knife or a pistol out is certainly a valid tactic that is taught by many, many schools, right?

The only reason I brought it up was because I also thought James' examples were more on the "administrative" end of the scale than the "urgent" end.

 

[cedartop]

Sure, there's plenty combatively you can do with the rifle on the sling, but getting a knife or a pistol out is certainly a valid tactic that is taught by many, many schools, right?

The only reason I brought it up was because I also thought James' examples were more on the "administrative" end of the scale than the "urgent" end.

No arguement with anything you said there.

 

[Fenway]

I think it's just a jacked toe nail.

Ouch, is that bone sticking out by the toenail?

 

[mvician]

An empty or malfunctioning rifle are two reasons of many you might transition to your pistol.

If you are in a combative situation trying to retain a rifle on a sling, it might not be empty so do you safe it up before transitioning to your pistol?

It's an interesting discussion topic for sure.

If you are taking your finger off of the trigger, the rifle goes on safe. No ifs, ands, or butts.

 

[85t5mcss]

Not trying to tame this down, but that looks like a small hole. I figured more damage even with a FMJ 7.62 at a high velocity. Wonder what the bottom hole looks like.

I have jumped on a #12 nail and had it shoot through my foot. Damage is pretty similar to that. Are these just that much of a through and through?

 

[Tinman]

Others have noted it, and Pinky and Marty both hit on it. There are really two types of transitions, the emergency transition when we’re actively engaging some threat and the long gun stops going bang, then there’s the administrative transition when we just need to get rid of the long gun so we have use of a free hand opening doors, working extremely tight quarters, controlling a suspect or a principal, etc).

If you’ve trained the emergency transition, and are using the safety correctly, i.e. on until you’ve decided to fire, the safety position takes care of itself prior to the transition. After all, it’s much easier to correctly complete a trained procedure when you want to with out stress, right.

Where I see a very real danger is when people begin to drill the administrative transition in an emergency situation, i.e. fire a few from the rifle, safety on, transition. In most cases, it’s a matter of attempting to “maximize training time” by not having to set up the drill several times with multiple dummies, or empty mags. This lets instructors run several back to back evolutions without down time. The problem is three fold. First, you are now instructing an additional and unnecessary step in the process of flipping on the safety that will likely not even be possible in the case of a real malfunction. Second, with the increased speed of repeated back to back iterations of a drill, students who are not quite as up to speed may get flustered and inadvertently transition without the safety. Finally, by telling the students you’ll run two rounds then transition, it completely removes any measure of surprised startle response, that at least in my opinion you should learn to train through.

I have taken to training transitions one of two ways, If I have enough dummy rounds, I’ll have the students load each others mags with 4 dummies randomly loaded every one to five rounds. Since another student loaded their mag, I just have them get up on the line and run to a malfunction before transition. Once they shoot the pistol, they just reholster and tap rack to get the carbine back up and running. Gives them a free rep of a malfunction drill too. If I don’t have enough dummies, I’ll have students load 3 or 4 mags with 1 to 5 rounds and repeat the same drill shooting to empty. With this, they get a free reload rep.

It seems to be working, and is eliciting the response I want to see from students so I’ve been pretty happy with it. Since the students are setting up one another's mags on a reload break, it essentially takes little to no extra time.

Incidentally, just some anecdotal info, I've never personally met anyone who did an emergency transition in a fight, but I've met a TON of guys who have done an administrative transition for one reason or another. Not saying they're not out there, I just haven't met them yet.

Of course this is really all just my opinion for what it's worth.

Tinman....

 

[lovemachine]

The only Defensive Rifle class I've taken, we did the transtion from rifle to pistol. But the instructor had us load our rifle mag with like 5-8 rounds. We shot til it was empty, then switched to our pistol.

So I just imagined you'd only switch to your pistol if your rifle was empty.

But I also don't know that much, so....

 

[turnandshoot4]

Not trying to tame this down, but that looks like a small hole. I figured more damage even with a FMJ 7.62 at a high velocity. Wonder what the bottom hole looks like.

I have jumped on a #12 nail and had it shoot through my foot. Damage is pretty similar to that. Are these just that much of a through and through?

You'd be suprised how much damage bullets DO NOT do. Especially at those close ranges. He's lucky he didn't get powder burns.

That round just smoked though the foot. No damage but what was right in front of the bullet at the time.

 

[Shay]

If you are taking your finger off of the trigger, the rifle goes on safe. No ifs, ands, or butts.

I love absolutes as much as anybody, BUT on an AR you cannot put the rifle on safe if the hammer isn't cocked. So, you can't put an AR that has a type 1 malfunction on safe. You also couldn't put it on safe if it fails to extract a spent casing from the chamber.

 

[Shay]