Teen Lesbian to attend White House instead of prom!

[Dashman010]

I've read alot of this thread, and generally choose not to respond because, well, the argument is one that never ends. Religious people think homosexuality is a sin, and it doesn't matter what argument is made, to them it is still a sin. And that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their argument, their beliefs, their way of life and how they run their family. I'm not here to tell you that your view is wrong, that god is wrong, or otherwise. But I do take issue with the following type statements:

Another point about grouping homosexuals with pedophiles, murderers etc.. I have heard a lot of people, from both sides, say that homosexuality is not a choice. They argure that a person is just born that way. I've heard the same thing about pedophiles, murders, rapists etc.. My point is that they still have a choice. They are choosing to follow sin.

Statements like this miss the biology and neurology behind the scenes. There are several studies that are out right now that show that homosexuality is is a genetic trait -- in other words, something that a person has no ability to change. It is ingrained in them at birth. Their ability to change their sexual preferences is roughly the same as it is for a black person to change his skin to white or vice versa. Sure, they could "pretend" to be heterosexual, but the fact is they are not. You can bleach your brown hair to make it blonde, but it doesn't make you a blonde. If they can't make a choice because that choice has been made for them, it's no choice at all. I'm not going to look down on someone for something they have no control over; indeed, something that by some people's beliefs, god created.

Conversely, pedophiles, murderers, rapists fall into a completely different category. These people are born *normal*, meaning they are not predisposed to any specific tendency. However, generally people have some traumatic life event that creates some defect in the brain which then induces their actions. This is a POST-birth problem.

This difference is played out in the lives of many homosexual people who choose to try and hide their homosexuality. But, if it's simply a choice, and people can just choose who they are attracted to and who to have sex with, what sense does this make. Why would someone live for years attempting to hide their homosexuality when they could just wake up and say "this sucks, i'm just gonna be straight."

Legally, this all plays out under the Equal Protection Clause, which was specifically designed to shield people from discrimination because of things they have no control over. If the preliminary studies are correct, and homosexuality is an immutable characteristic, I have no doubt that it should be covered.

As it pertains to this case, it appears all this girl asked for was to sign up for the prom with her girlfriend. The school said no. She said "yes" or I'll take you to court, and the school said fine, no prom. The school cancelled prom for hundreds of students because they disagreed with the sexual orientation of 2 students. Not because they were having lesbian sex in the bathroom, not because they were going to show up naked, not because they were going to trounce a parade through the prom, but simply because she wanted to show up with a girl on her arm. Everyone on this forum would have challenged this in court (money permitting) if it had to do with out gun rights. If the government were to say "Joe Blow handled a gun in a way which we don't like, and therefore we are revoking everyone's gun permits," hell would come to the Indiana courts. This girl simply asserted what any of us in her situation would want: the right to be left alone and treated like everyone else. She wasn't hurting anyone, she wasn't preaching gay rights at the prom, she wasn't on a soapbox -- until the school treated her differently than her fellow students. Bravo to her for standing up for herself and her rights.

 

[Joe Williams]

How about a boy in a dress at the prom. Is that CC enough for you?

Only if it's a very short dress, and he's not wearing underwear.

 

[Eddie]

Being gay isnt a crime. But being a Patriot is equal to being a terrorist.


Execuse me if I dont follow society's direction into decay, brother.




Um, remember going to school? Teacher would have a vote about something the majority voted a certain way, and afew lone wolves voted another - Which side should the teacher agree with? And for the sake of arguement, let's say pizza vs cow testicles.

The majority said "PIZZA" but the minority wanted cow testicles. Guess what is for lunch?


Sorry but the majority vote has been useless for quite sometime.

And brother, I never said I am the one to dictate life for another. BUT THEY have ZERO right to flaunt it, or it's agenda in the public.





Already there... Been there...

But Im curious.... Who do you think Nature might agree with?

The comments about nature are logically flawed. Nature can't agree or disagree. To say that sex is wrong if it is not reproductive sex doesn't account for all the non-reproductive sex that goes on in nature. Did you ever own a dog that wasn't fixed? You can find examples in nature of all sorts of weird reproductive and non-reproductive sex, that doesn't mean it translates well to intelligent humans.

As far as arguing the bible, being gay might be a sin, but it is not illegal. If it is a sin, then god is going to deal with it right? As much as you may not like it we don't live in a Theocracy. I don't want the Church to be able to tell me how to live my life because that might make it possible for some other church to come along that I don't agree with and set different rules for how I live my life.

 

[Colt556]

Since when is an 18 year old high school student dating a 15 year old high school student strange? I remember lots of incidences of it over the years.

I suppose I just wouldn't want my 15yo daughter known as a lesbian traveling around the country having sex with an adult. But it seems my old fashioned way of thinking is frowned upon here in the new touchy feely world.

 

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

The right to be treated the same in the eyes of the law as two heterosexuals. Nothing more, nothing less.

If a Homosexual wishes for equal treatment, then perhaps they ought to behave like Straight people, and dont expect Straight people (The majority) to cater to them, and they're own insecurities and social problems.

Wouldnt this be fair? I would not have a problem, or "AS MUCH" if it wasnt flaunted. But even worse, if I didnt see "men" pretending to be women, or acting as such.

They bring they're own problems on themselves with they're "flamming appeal" brother. I dont go out searching them out, I just call it as I see it.

This is no different than a women who dresses like a whore, and then complains when men stare at her..

I wouldn't have suspected you would deny the term since it's clear that you embrace it. For what it's worth, I was careful in my writings to try to avoid using the term as a pejorative, rather as a descriptor.

So you did it just to do it, right?

And to be quite honest, as I said... I long ago quit giving value to boogymen terms, like bigot for the obvious unequality they harbor.

A Homosexual who trumps his own homosexual agenda is a bigot; BUT IS NEVER CALLED ONE.

He's a victim, defenseless poor little victim to the mean, cruel evil hetrosexuals..

The issue at hand is not your or my sexuality. The criteria for bigotry in this case in not one of whether or not you've engaged in homosexual behavior, but what your attitude towards people who are homosexual are.

Definition of Bigot, please.

I dont have to be anymore accepting of homosexuality, than a homosexual is of Traditional American family values.

Please, spare me the hypocrisy brother.

Actually, if you reread what I wrote, you would find that I was fairly careful to avoid an ad hominem attack.

My preception is what felt the "Bigot" remark as ad hominem, and not to mention bringing up SF, which is ENTIRELY irrelevent to this conversation and my opinion.

You may have tried to avoid, but brother. Consider politeness is in the preception of the company you engage. If they are insulted, then it is simply such, brother.

You may not be wrong, but they are also not wrong, it is simply.... Miscommunication.

 

[Fletch]

 

[Dashman010]

And brother, I never said I am the one to dictate life for another. BUT THEY have ZERO right to flaunt it, or it's agenda in the public.

Apparently the freedom of speech doesn't apply to ideas we don't like. Oh, right, that's EXACTLY what it applies to. They actually have ALL the right to flaunt it and their agenda in public.

Now, whether the manner in which they do this is effective is a different question. I don't think gay pride parades are particularly effective vehicles for getting their message across, much the same way I don't think protesting by carrying an AK or AR around town is. But that is a question of tactics, and not a question of whether someone has the underlying right to express their opinion, flaunt their beliefs, or raise their agenda in public. They most certainly do.

 

[Bill of Rights]

"Sin" is a concept that's a part of organized religion, which was something dreamed up by man to control his fellow men. You (generic "you", not you specifically, Beau) may not like that fact, but fact it is.

Not everyone participates in religion, and indeed, not everyone believes in God. According to Christianity, that would also be a sin: "I AM the Lord thy God; Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."

Ever look at an attractive woman and think about what you'd like to do with her? (Adultery, covetousness, etc.)

Ever talk back to your parents?

They say that 40% of people masturbate in Europe. The other 60% do so in other parts of the world. That, too, is considered sinful by Christianity, among others.

I seem to recall a line about motes and beams in eyes..

My thoughts: Teach your children that this is not something of which you approve. Teach them it's something your religion (and theirs?) does not condone. You cannot shield them from the world, and if you could, IMHO, you should not, because they WILL be exposed to it eventually, and better they have some foundation on which to base their response. I'm not saying teach them all the nitty gritty details, but, much as with other safety lessons, you teach them how to handle this. (which, IMHO, is "quietly disagree and leave when you can.") This does not include others trying to involve them in it, which I think is handled with a "no thanks", a more firm "No!", and perhaps a GTFO prior to physical violence becoming acceptable.

You indicate that you don't believe people are born liking one or the other gender. I never CHOSE to be attracted to women, though my wife and I are both very happy that I am. I never CHOSE to not be attracted to men, though again, we're both very happy that I'm not. I cannot believe that people with homosexual attractions have intentionally chosen a life of ridicule, scorn, and hatred, however, your post indicates that you can believe that. Fine, for the moment, let's presume that's true: Are you saying that they should either live a lie (claim to be attracted to the opposite sex) or that they should choose permanent abstinence, solely because your religion says that their preferences are unacceptable or because they make you uncomfortable?

I don't care if two guys want to bump uglies, so long as neither tries to do so with me. I don't object to two women wanting to do the same, so long as neither is my wife. If they're both hot, I want to watch. I don't believe our country's decline is solely caused by a failure to follow the Christian Bible any more than the rain was caused by American Indians doing a rain dance or the crops growing was caused by sacrificing animals on an altar. I think that our country's decline was caused primarily by megalomaniacal, well-financed people who believe that they can run the world better than everyone else and have the money, influence, and power to affect such things as best suit them.

Religion and morals have their place. IMHO, that place is in your personal code of how you live your life and extends to how you teach your children to live their lives. What was the quote: "My father never taught me how to live. He lived, and he allowed me to watch him and learn."

YMMV.

Blessings,
Bill

The point is they are all sin. None of the above should be socially acceptable, even homosexuality.

Homosexuality is just as much of a sin as anything else. Me not wanting it pushed in my or my childrens face does not make me hatefull. I'm fine with being called a bigot. I do not have to be tolerant of any act that goes against God.

Another point about grouping homosexuals with pedophiles, murderers etc.. I have heard a lot of people, from both sides, say that homosexuality is not a choice. They argure that a person is just born that way. I've heard the same thing about pedophiles, murders, rapists etc.. My point is that they still have a choice. They are choosing to follow sin.

This country was founded on biblical principles and was blessed for many years. The blessings have stopped and it is our own fault. As a nation we are working very hard to put ourselves before God and we are reaping what we sow.

 

[JBusch8899]

I suppose I just wouldn't want my 15yo daughter known as a lesbian traveling around the country having sex with an adult. But it seems my old fashioned way of thinking is frowned upon here in the new touchy feely world.

I wouldn't want my 15 year old daughter traveling around the world with anyone she is engaged in sexual congress, male or female. However, as I haven't read, or otherwise ascertained, that the both are engaged in such conduct, I believe you are merely speculating.

 

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

The comments about nature are logically flawed. Nature can't agree or disagree. To say that sex is wrong if it is not reproductive sex doesn't account for all the non-reproductive sex that goes on in nature. Did you ever own a dog that wasn't fixed? You can find examples in nature of all sorts of weird reproductive and non-reproductive sex, that doesn't mean it translates well to intelligent humans.

Pure Homosexuality leads to genetic dead end... Hence Nature sides with Hetrosexuals. Which was my point, Im apologize I should have explained it abit better.

Nature is on my side, Eddie.

As far as arguing the bible, being gay might be a sin, but it is not illegal. If it is a sin, then god is going to deal with it right? As much as you may not like it we don't live in a Theocracy. I don't want the Church to be able to tell me how to live my life because that might make it possible for some other church to come along that I don't agree with and set different rules for how I live my life.

AIDS/HIV might be God's idea of punishing those who engage in behavior which is vice.
It is obvious to note that the Homosexual/bi community have a higher percentage of individuals with some form of STD/HIV etc than a hetrosexual population.



And I agree, I dont want the Church telling me a thing.. But I also dont want a communist agenda telling me something, either.

 

[Bubba]

This country was founded on biblical principles and was blessed for many years. The blessings have stopped and it is our own fault. As a nation we are working very hard to put ourselves before God and we are reaping what we sow.

This country was also founded on forced servitude, subjugation of women, and child labor. Perhaps a perceived decline in this country is caused by not being able to ship our 12 year olds down to the local blacksmith for apprenticeship? There are many factors contributing to the current state of the country. You can't choose just one.

The founders were spiritual men, sure, but they also realized that government an its agents should not be arbiters of religious law. Governments should exist to soothe points of contention between people, not between a person and the Almighty. If a concern about two chicks dating had been raised by a parent or student and been addressed specifically by the school board I'd be fine with the school's decision, but I've seen nothing that indicates the prom rules originated anywhere other than the principal's personal feelings. The situation we have here is that a government agent felt that a girl going to a dance with a girl violated their beliefs, not because they suspected the act would result in a crime or pose a risk to the children, but because they felt it would violate their religion-inspired beliefs. If they were that concerned about sin they'd never have allowed a prom in the first place, since I can just about promise more than one of the attending couples are neither married nor chaste.

 

[Colt556]

I wouldn't want my 15 year old daughter traveling around the world with anyone she is engaged in sexual congress, male or female. However, as I haven't read, or otherwise ascertained, that the both are engaged in such conduct, I believe you are merely speculating.

Since they both are admitted lesbians wouldn't that mean they are having sex? If not they'd just be friends. Could someone be an alcoholic without ever drinking?

 

[Dashman010]

Since they both are admitted lesbians wouldn't that mean they are having sex? If not they'd just be friends. Could someone be an alcoholic without ever drinking?

Before you had sex for the first time were you undecided?

 

[JBusch8899]

AIDS/HIV might be God's idea of punishing those who engage in behavior which is vice. It is obvious to note that the Homosexual/bi community have a higher percentage of individuals with some form of STD/HIV etc than a hetrosexual population.

I'm going to go out on a limb and make a supposition that you don't have a fraction of the knowledge that I possess of HIV and AIDS.

This is not a flame, but that statement was completely irresponsible, and almost entirely in error. Please don't ever do that again.

 

[XMil]

If a Homosexual wishes for equal treatment, then perhaps they ought to behave like Straight people

That is usually what causes the problem. Acting like straight people. I guarantee that before the day is over, I will see two straight people in public, holding hands, kissing or hugging. When its gay people, they are "flaunting" it.

I don't have any real interest either way, except that this topic usually causes such intense debate. I know people who are otherwise perfectly rational, absolutely fly off the handle about it.

When the company I work for extended benefits to same-sex partners, some people here actually took to the streets carrying signs in protest. Protesting something that in no way had any effect on their lives. However, when someone marries someone with a violent criminal background, and they get the same benefits, there is silence.

 

[shibumiseeker]

My preception is what felt the "Bigot" remark as ad hominem, and not to mention bringing up SF, which is ENTIRELY irrelevent to this conversation and my opinion.

Definition:
A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.

Your relation to Stormfront is entirely relevant to this conversation with regard to whether or not your views are bigotted. You are unapologetic about your views which I take to mean that you hold them with some pride, therefore my using the term bigot should not be offensive to you. Quite frankly, while I strongly disagree with your views, I respect your right to hold them. But I'm also not going to dance around the subject because you might perceive it as an insult. Regardless, it's not an ad hominem attack since it is directly relevant to the discussion as to your views on homosexuality. Point in fact, I think you are admirably internally consistent.

 

[redneckmedic]

--------------->

 

[Colt556]

Before you had sex for the first time were you undecided?

Nope, I had ideas about girls but at 15yo honestly we were still riding bikes and shooting BB guns. Kids start having sex a lot earlier now a days. And when it finally did happen it was after a lot of Spin the Bottle and other kissing games, all with girls.

 

[JBusch8899]

Since they both are admitted lesbians wouldn't that mean they are having sex? If not they'd just be friends. Could someone be an alcoholic without ever drinking?

The human condition requires free will.

People are by nature, sexual; but don't necessarily engage in sexual intercourse. Such is evident in a number of married women.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Since they both are admitted lesbians wouldn't that mean they are having sex? If not they'd just be friends. Could someone be an alcoholic without ever drinking?

If you and your wife never have sex ever again are you still heterosexual?

Sexual identity largely irrelevant to activity.