Tennessee rolls out "No Refusal" blood draws

[zippy23]

they block public roads and harass citizens, while leaving the borders WIDE OPEN, knowing that people are just walking in. this is unreal. i'm tired of this.

 

[Bowman78]

Oh sorry purple implied... Not a fan of another citizen(police) exercising the use of overreaching legislation to limit or restrict my freedom to move about... Not drinking and driving btw.. It would seem with recent exploits of IMPD that sop would be PBT before officers start and finish their shifts.. What the heck lets put PBT analysis stations in their personal rides to be safe!!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Article said the warrants were readily available

Warrants usually are. If I want a warrant right now, I can type it up and then I can drive to the APC where there's a judge on duty to sign it. The article says they have an "on call" judge who can sign. My warrants are more readily available than their warrants, which is typical of a larger city vs a smaller one. I fail to see the relevance.

How about PC for Operating with a Schedule I or II Controlled Substance in the Body? Mind you, un-Mirandized statements should be inadmissible.

It depends on when in the stop the statements are made. A simple traffic stop doesn't require Miranda. There's a metric butt ton of case law associated with it, including traffic stops, terry stops, traffic accidents, etc. In fairness, I haven't researched checkpoints specifically because I don't do them, but I'm pretty certain it would fall under the same "simple and minimally intrusive" conditions of a traffic stop or Terry stop.

As has already been stated, there are physical signs that officers are trained to look for (some more than others, there is a Drug Recognition Training program, but I've never been) plus volunteered statements, plus driving behavior, plus presence of narcotics in the vehicle by sight or smell, etc. etc.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If you want to see drunk driving roadblocks declared unconstitutional simply pass the Freeman Law: permanent OWI checkpoints in the neighborhoods of all state Supreme Court justices.

OWI checkpoints would be discovered to be unconstitutional the next day.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Oh sorry purple implied... Not a fan of another citizen(police) exercising the use of overreaching legislation to limit or restrict my freedom to move about... Not drinking and driving btw.. It would seem with recent exploits of IMPD that sop would be PBT before officers start and finish their shifts.. What the heck lets put PBT analysis stations in their personal rides to be safe!!

I'm not a fan of checkpoints either, but the reporting of the IMPD arrests is irrelevant. While you wouldn't think so thanks to the media attention, IMPD still gets locked up for DUI less per capita than the Indiana state average (about 33% less depending on who's arrest statistics you use). DUI's are broken down into age group, but given that most of the folks I ever got on DUIs were on the younger end of the scale, as police seem to be, I think the statistics would be even more tilted toward the average arrest rate vs IMPD arrest rate. Ever since Bisard, the media loves to pile on, though, making it seem like an epidemic.

Checkpoints, as exercised in Indiana, don't restrict your freedom to move about any more than a red light does. The stop has to be short term, there has to be signs telling you that you are approaching one, and there have to be alternative routes that bypass the checkpoint.

 

[Bowman78]

I'm not a fan of checkpoints either, but the reporting of the IMPD arrests is irrelevant. While you wouldn't think so thanks to the media attention, IMPD still gets locked up for DUI less per capita than the Indiana state average (about 33% less depending on who's arrest statistics you use). DUI's are broken down into age group, but given that most of the folks I ever got on DUIs were on the younger end of the scale, as police seem to be, I think the statistics would be even more tilted toward the average arrest rate vs IMPD arrest rate. Ever since Bisard, the media loves to pile on, though, making it seem like an epidemic.

Checkpoints, as exercised in Indiana, don't restrict your freedom to move about any more than a red light does. The stop has to be short term, there has to be signs telling you that you are approaching one, and there have to be alternative routes that bypass the checkpoint.

That sounds like a typical police response???? Shouldn't the po-po and legislative branch and judicial branch be held to a higher level of accountability due to their elevated status of power??? What happens when an officer gets convicted of a DUI??? Not a deffinative outcome?? How bout a lawyer???? They get disbarred in a hurry for any displayed contempt of the law!!! Legislators???? I hate the idea of do as I say not as I do!!!! Which I have observed first hand by many police departments and other levels of government!!! Just wish the rest of the populace would wake up!!! The comparison of a stoplight vs a DUI checkpoint is not equivalent btw..

 

[nawainwright]

Meh, they have a stack of "signed" warrants in the back of the squad car. All they need to do is write your name on it, "Oh looky, I have a warrant!"

 

[Bowman78]

If you want to see drunk driving roadblocks declared unconstitutional simply pass the Freeman Law: permanent OWI checkpoints in the neighborhoods of all state Supreme Court justices.

OWI checkpoints would be discovered to be unconstitutional the next day.

Amen , Kirk!!!!!!

 

[Bowman78]

If you don't trust the police or the government you should wear a tin-foil hat!! They both got your back!!!!!!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Meh, they have a stack of "signed" warrants in the back of the squad car. All they need to do is write your name on it, "Oh looky, I have a warrant!"

Dang it, NOW you tell me. Think of all the gas I could have saved over the years.

 

[Bunnykid68]

If you want to see drunk driving roadblocks declared unconstitutional simply pass the Freeman Law: permanent OWI checkpoints in the neighborhoods of all state Supreme Court justices.

OWI checkpoints would be discovered to be unconstitutional the next day.

FTW

 

[BehindBlueI's]

That sounds like a typical police response???? Shouldn't the po-po and legislative branch and judicial branch be held to a higher level of accountability due to their elevated status of power???

Why should I be held to a "higher standard" criminally than a doctor, lawyer, butcher, baker, or candlestick maker? I'm a cop, not a saint, and make no claims to the contrary. I will sometimes screw the pooch, I will sometimes make bad decisions, I will sometimes be careless AS WILL ANY OTHER HUMAN. Anyone who expects otherwise doesn't want humans doing the job, what you really want is robots to enforce the law. Of course, given how people scream about red light cameras, I guess they don't want that either.

I get your emotionally involved from your use of lots of punctuation, but really your facts are a bit light. Lawyers get disbarred 'in a hurry' for any displayed contempt of law. Pfft. Yeah, I know a few who've been locked up (perhaps even over alcohol use) and retained their positions. Didn't even make the papers. I'm not sure what "not a deffinative outcome" means or refers to. DUI cases can go on for a long time if the defense wants it to. There was a particular private attorney in Marion county who used to try to subpeona the factory worker who packaged the syringe used for a blood draw. Shenanigans at its finest, but since its not on TV, most people don't know or care. The reason I bring up the averages is because some folks, you in particular in this instance, are trying to make it look like a epidemic in IMPD. It isn't. Any random group of 1500 or so, predominately male, predominately 25-45 year olds, is going to have MORE arrests for DUI than IMPD. Simple. Yeah, some of us screw up. That doesn't mean we're all drunkards or that this is somehow relevant to a debate on checkpoints.

 

[Bowman78]

Why should I be held to a "higher standard" criminally than a doctor, lawyer, butcher, baker, or candlestick maker? I'm a cop, not a saint, and make no claims to the contrary. I will sometimes screw the pooch, I will sometimes make bad decisions, I will sometimes be careless AS WILL ANY OTHER HUMAN. Anyone who expects otherwise doesn't want humans doing the job, what you really want is robots to enforce the law. Of course, given how people scream about red light cameras, I guess they don't want that either.

I get your emotionally involved from your use of lots of punctuation, but really your facts are a bit light. Lawyers get disbarred 'in a hurry' for any displayed contempt of law. Pfft. Yeah, I know a few who've been locked up (perhaps even over alcohol use) and retained their positions. Didn't even make the papers. I'm not sure what "not a deffinative outcome" means or refers to. DUI cases can go on for a long time if the defense wants it to. There was a particular private attorney in Marion county who used to try to subpeona the factory worker who packaged the syringe used for a blood draw. Shenanigans at its finest, but since its not on TV, most people don't know or care. The reason I bring up the averages is because some folks, you in particular in this instance, are trying to make it look like a epidemic in IMPD. It isn't. Any random group of 1500 or so, predominately male, predominately 25-45 year olds, is going to have MORE arrests for DUI than IMPD. Simple. Yeah, some of us screw up. That doesn't mean we're all drunkards or that this is somehow relevant to a debate on checkpoints.

Doctors , butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers don't enforce the laws that we are supposed to live by as a society for 8-10 hrs a day and then go home and break them.. I guess from my direct reference to impd that you think I only think they have problems?? No, I believe all departments have their issues!! Impd just gets the most news share locally.. Please don't be personally offended by my views of policing.. I'm sure you are a good officer and I know a few personally, they are not in the impd force.. Other counties or special arms of policing..

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Doctors , butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers don't enforce the laws that we are supposed to live by as a society for 8-10 hrs a day and then go home and break them..

True, but again, we're human. If you expect someone to enforce the law who has never, and will never, break the law than there is no one left to enforce them. You can easily make the same argument that you think doctors should have no unhealthy habits if they are going to tell me how to live, yet I'm sure every doctor out there has some vice, from cigarettes to salt to cholesterol to lack of exercise, etc. That also doesn't make them any less able as a doctor, or make their advice for me to avoid tobacco and salty foods any less true. There isn't a parent alive who hasn't told their children not to do something that they, either as a child or as an adult, haven't done themselves. Do I lose my moral standing to tell my son that he shouldn't curse, and to punish him for it, because I cursed at his age? Of course not. Does that make me (or the doctor) a hypocrite, or someone who wants to help others avoid the failings that they have fallen to or someone doing their job the best that they can, despite their own personal failings?

DUI is, by statute, a very low level crime. At its lowest its a "C" misdemeanor, the absolute lowest criminal offense in Indiana that can result in an arrest. Which is one of the reasons that I don't think checkpoints should be used to detect it. If its that low of a concern for society (as expressed by our criminal code) than why are we using checkpoints to detect it? Similarly I don't think anyone should have their career thrown away over it IF THEY ARE OFF DUTY. If a pilot gets a DUI, he shouldn't lose his pilot's license. If he shows up to work drunk to fly a plane, that's a different matter. If a doctor gets a DUI, they shouldn't lose their medical license, but if they show up drunk to surgery, that's a different matter. I don't see why police (or anyone) should be held to any different standard.

 

[jbombelli]

If you want to see drunk driving roadblocks declared unconstitutional simply pass the Freeman Law: permanent OWI checkpoints in the neighborhoods of all state Supreme Court justices.

OWI checkpoints would be discovered to be unconstitutional the next day.

I for one am in favor of the Freeman Law.

 

[MisterChester]

"No Refusal"? What was wrong with what they were doing before?

 

[Bowman78]

True, but again, we're human. If you expect someone to enforce the law who has never, and will never, break the law than there is no one left to enforce them. You can easily make the same argument that you think doctors should have no unhealthy habits if they are going to tell me how to live, yet I'm sure every doctor out there has some vice, from cigarettes to salt to cholesterol to lack of exercise, etc. That also doesn't make them any less able as a doctor, or make their advice for me to avoid tobacco and salty foods any less true. There isn't a parent alive who hasn't told their children not to do something that they, either as a child or as an adult, haven't done themselves. Do I lose my moral standing to tell my son that he shouldn't curse, and to punish him for it, because I cursed at his age? Of course not. Does that make me (or the doctor) a hypocrite, or someone who wants to help others avoid the failings that they have fallen to or someone doing their job the best that they can, despite their own personal failings?

DUI is, by statute, a very low level crime. At its lowest its a "C" misdemeanor, the absolute lowest criminal offense in Indiana that can result in an arrest. Which is one of the reasons that I don't think checkpoints should be used to detect it. If its that low of a concern for society (as expressed by our criminal code) than why are we using checkpoints to detect it? Similarly I don't think anyone should have their career thrown away over it IF THEY ARE OFF DUTY. If a pilot gets a DUI, he shouldn't lose his pilot's license. If he shows up to work drunk to fly a plane, that's a different matter. If a doctor gets a DUI, they shouldn't lose their medical license, but if they show up drunk to surgery, that's a different matter. I don't see why police (or anyone) should be held to any different standard.[/QUO

I doubt you and I will ever see my point from the same perspective.. Your livelihood is policing I assume, so being objective is difficult.. As well as I know you have seen a lot of stupid instances and people that need/needed your help and interference in your line of duty... I sincerely thank you for your service!!

 

[churchmouse]

This just leaves me speechless, and any of you that know me, knows that is a rarity.. I can't even wrap my head around it..

Exactly^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I can not imagine all the charges I would be facing if this was forced on me.

 

[cobber]

Exact same PC is used to read them Implied Consent. Many "downers" will show similar effects to ETOH...HGN will be present, unsteady balance, slow-slurred speech. Other drugs will likely require a DRE (Drug Recognition Expert) to form the PC for you. I've stopped plenty of people on Oxy and the layperson would think they were hammered. They will show nystagmus easily. Driving behavior, driving behavior, driving behavior...it's crucial. On a checkpoint, even with PC, we were told that if they are under .08 and you did not witness erratic driving...you drive them home.

Assuming that the level is high enough to affect driving behavior, but that's not what the law requires w/ re to Sch I or II CS. A little dab'll do ya, conviction-wise.


I'm curious about the blood draw. Does it cover all controlled substances? What if the draw/UDS comes up blank?

If you want to see drunk driving roadblocks declared unconstitutional simply pass the Freeman Law: permanent OWI checkpoints in the neighborhoods of all state Supreme Court justices.

OWI checkpoints would be discovered to be unconstitutional the next day.

Did that affect IL law after Justice Heiple was pulled over?

Sorry. He wasn't driving drunk, just driving while an ass.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/03/us/after-censure-chief-justice-of-illinois-quits.html

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I doubt you and I will ever see my point from the same perspective.. Your livelihood is policing I assume, so being objective is difficult.. As well as I know you have seen a lot of stupid instances and people that need/needed your help and interference in your line of duty... I sincerely thank you for your service!!

I appreciate it. Reasonable minds may differ, and I appreciate the civility in the conversation.

It could be an issue with objectivity, but honestly I believe its because I've seen so much, and so much worse, that I just have trouble getting worked up over DUIs in general. I'd say it has more to do with remembering how things were before MADD than being a cop.