Tennessee rolls out "No Refusal" blood draws

[GPD177]

I am not going to weigh in on the check point issue as that has been beat to death already. But to expand on what Blue I's is saying concerning police officers should be held to a higher standard. They way I see it, police officers are paid to enforce law. We are not paid to be a higher example. I think we should try to set a higher example though. If a police officer gets a DUI (misdemeanor) off duty in his own vehicle, does that disqualify him from ever making a DUI arrest because it would be hypocritical? No it doesnt. That particular officer, after he gets past what ever discipline he has coming, should still be able to make a DUI arrest because it is not about "his" behavior or mistakes, he is being paid to enforce the law. Now if you expand his behavior into something involving criminal harm or dishonesty then I do think that would be a disqualifier because that brings into play his honesty and trust worthyness. A misdemeanor DUI is a crime of poor judgement, yes do your punishment, like everyone else. A felony DUI, DUI while on duty or in a city vehicle is something that warrants termination. This may not be a perfect analogy but I hope you can see where I am getting with this.

 

[jon5212]

So I've got a question. Whereabouts do checkpoints fall under "probable cause" for being pulled over? Say I'm driving in my car, my registration is valid, everything works properly on my vehicle and I have not broken any traffic laws. I already know I can't be pulled over to just make sure I have a driver's license. So why do we let these shenanigans go on? I don't care for the reason of "its minimally intrusive" excuse because there should be no reason at all for me to have to stop and "prove" something to Barney Fife.

 

[Roadie]

Hmmm, I've done more blood draw warrants than I care to remember. So, are we up in arms that the police are getting them or is it something else? See, this is how it works. I read you Indiana Implied Consent and the first 3 words are "I have Probable Cause". Wow, I have PC to believe they were operating while intoxicated. PC. Soooooo, you refuse, fine. I place you under arrest for the OWI and apply for a blood draw warrant based on the PC. It's a pretty simple warrant and PC of intoxication is not that difficult to show. When I was working DUI Taskforce we had to treat every refusal that way, warrant for them all.

You've forcibly administered a blood draw warrant? I was under the impression that IC stated that a driver could refuse, but then would have the license suspended.

IC 9-30-6-7
Refusal to submit to chemical tests or test results in prima facie evidence of intoxication; duties of arresting officer
Sec. 7. (a) If a person refuses to submit to a chemical test, the arresting officer shall inform the person that refusal will result in the suspension of the person's driving privileges.
(b) If a person refuses to submit to a chemical test after having been advised that the refusal will result in the suspension of driving privileges or submits to a chemical test that results in prima facie evidence of intoxication, the arresting officer shall do the following:
(1) Obtain the person's driver's license or permit if the person is in possession of the document and issue a receipt valid until the initial hearing of the matter held under IC 35-33-7-1.
(2) Submit a probable cause affidavit to the prosecuting attorney of the county in which the alleged offense occurred.

 

[EAS]

The police have been using these type of DUI/OWI check points all over the country for years. I think the issue here is the blood draw. Can they not get the same information from the breathalyzer? Then if that comes back negative then test for drugs if needed?

 

[Roadie]

The police have been using these type of DUI/OWI check points all over the country for years. I think the issue here is the blood draw. Can they not get the same information from the breathalyzer? Then if that comes back negative then test for drugs if needed?

Agreed. The validity of Checkpoints are a separate discussion. FORCIBLE blood draws are the issue here, IMHO.

 

[Denny347]

You've forcibly administered a blood draw warrant? I was under the impression that IC stated that a driver could refuse, but then would have the license suspended.

Forcibly? I suppose that is accurate. They have every right to refuse, their license will get suspended. I place them under arrest then I apply for a search warrant. Why is applying for a search warrant such a big deal? Probable cause is probable cause right? Now I'm taking crap BECAUSE I got a warrant?

 

[Roadie]

You have held someone down while another Officer draws blood? If not, I think you are missing the point..
This is a NO Refusal blood draw.. not a Refuse and Lose Your License situation.

 

[Fargo]

You have held someone down while another Officer draws blood? If not, I think you are missing the point..

It happens not infrequently; although it isn't another officer pulling the blood. It is the nurse or whoever the hospital has pulling it.

Generally, you get treated the same way you would any other time you resist the service of a search warrant.

Best,

Joe

 

[Roadie]

It happens not infrequently; although it isn't another officer pulling the blood. It is the nurse or whoever the hospital has pulling it.

Generally, you get treated the same way you would any other time you resist the service of a search warrant.

Best,

Joe

How does that work in light of the IC I posted above?

 

[Roadie]

Call me crazy, but a forcible blood draw at a DUI Checkpoint, based solely on the fact you have a child under 16 1n your car, seems a wee bit more in violation of the 4th, than a traffic stop based on evidence of impaired driving resulting in a blood draw.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Whereabouts do checkpoints fall under "probable cause" for being pulled over?

Don't need probable cause to pull someone over, just reasonable suspicion.

The Indiana Supreme Court, in absence of the Freeman Law, holds that properly conducted roadblocks are reasonable searches and seizures.

You've forcibly administered a blood draw warrant? I was under the impression that IC stated that a driver could refuse, but then would have the license suspended.

I am certain he has if he is conducting pursuant to a warrant.

Driver can refuse and then Denny makes phone call to the on duty Magistrate/Judge. As long as reasonable force is used then yes the poooo-leece can get your blood.

It is not done at the scene but in the horsepistol.

Now I'm taking crap BECAUSE I got a warrant?

No, some think that the police are running around sticking people with needles while holding them down and laughing like Mr. Burns from The Simpsons.

Smithers, my needle.

The media, of course, leaves things fuzzy for the average dude reading this and has zero experience with the criminal justice system outside of being pulled over for speeding.

You have held someone down while another Officer draws blood?

Extremely unlikely. Likely a tech or nurse at the hospital.

Call me crazy, but a forcible blood draw at a DUI Checkpoint, based solely on the fact you have a child under 16 on your car, seems a wee bit more in violation of the 4th, than a traffic stop based on evidence of impaired driving resulting in a blood draw.

1. It is not done on scene.

2. The blood draw is done with a warrant and at the hospital.

3. A warrant based soley on having an under 16 year old in the car??? If so, then, well, then I have some fantastic news for that client cause we are going to prevail at that motion to suppress.

 

[Fargo]

How does that work in light of the IC I posted above?

The IC you posted above simply deals with the license suspension consequences of refusal. It in no way limits the police from seeking/obtaining a search warrant for evidence of a crime; ie the blood draw.

If you refuse a chem test and there is PC for OWI, you are getting an administrative suspension no matter what. You will still get it even if they get a warrant and get your blood that way.

Best,

Joe

 

[Roadie]

Don't need probable cause to pull someone over, just reasonable suspicion.

The Indiana Supreme Court, in absence of the Freeman Law, holds that properly conducted roadblocks are reasonable searches and seizures.



I am certain he has if he is conducting pursuant to a warrant.

Driver can refuse and then Denny makes phone call to the on duty Magistrate/Judge. As long as reasonable force is used then yes the poooo-leece can get your blood.

It is not done at the scene but in the horsepistol.



No, some think that the police are running around sticking people with needles while holding them down and laughing like Mr. Burns from The Simpsons.

Smithers, my needle.

The media, of course, leaves things fuzzy for the average dude reading this and has zero experience with the criminal justice system outside of being pulled over for speeding.




Extremely unlikely. Likely a tech or nurse at the hospital.



1. It is not done on scene.

2. The blood draw is done with a warrant and at the hospital.

3. A warrant based soley on having an under 16 year old in the car??? If so, then, well, then I have some fantastic news for that client cause we are going to prevail at that motion to suppress.

In Indiana perhaps, but not in TN..

The legislation, which would go into effect Jan. 1, 2012, will require police to force a blood draw regardless of whether the driver consents to it if they have a prior DUI conviction or if they have a child in the vehicle with them under the age of 16.

 

[Roadie]

The IC you posted above simply deals with the license suspension consequences of refusal. It in no way limits the police from seeking/obtaining a search warrant for evidence of a crime; ie the blood draw.

If you refuse a chem test and there is PC for OWI, you are getting an administrative suspension no matter what. You will still get it even if they get a warrant and get your blood that way.

Best,

Joe

"If you refuse a chem test and there is PC for OWI". So, here in Indiana, i am not going to have a warrant served on me for a blood draw after a DUI Checkpoint without PC.. My main point being that I CAN initially refuse a test.

In Tennessee apparently, you cannot refuse. They don't have to have any other PC to get a warrant, just a prior DUI Conviction, or a minor in the car..

 

[cobber]

"If you refuse a chem test and there is PC for OWI". So, here in Indiana, i am not going to have a warrant served on me for a blood draw after a DUI Checkpoint without PC.. My main point being that I CAN initially refuse a test.

The officer needs PC to offer a test. If you refuse the test, the officer can seek a warrant. Whether resulting from a checkpoint or a traffic stop.

Checkpoint = stop (no PC or RS required)

PC = offer of a test (officer will not offer a test in the absence of PC)

PC + refusal = warrant and blood draw

You can always refuse a test, but if the police have a warrant, they're bringing a phlebotomist with them.

 

[Denny347]

"If you refuse a chem test and there is PC for OWI". So, here in Indiana, i am not going to have a warrant served on me for a blood draw after a DUI Checkpoint without PC.. My main point being that I CAN initially refuse a test.

In Tennessee apparently, you cannot refuse. They don't have to have any other PC to get a warrant, just a prior DUI Conviction, or a minor in the car..

(In Indiana) At a checkpoint, if the officer has not read you implied consent, he/she has no PC to believe you are OWI and there cannot be PC for a warrant. You can refuse the SFST's and PBT's if those are the "tests" you are referring to. However, if the "test" you are talking about is the certified chemical test that will get your license suspended if you refuse, I would have to read you Implied Consent before offering you the test and thus I have PC to do so. You refuse after Implied Consent was read, you will be handcuffed and placed under arrest, then I apply for a warrant. We will got to Wishard Detention for the blood draw to be administered by a RN then dropped off at lock-up. There is a judge working 22hrs a day at lock-up so it's not hard to do.

 

[ViperJock]

they block public roads and harass citizens, while leaving the borders WIDE OPEN, knowing that people are just walking in. this is unreal. i'm tired of this.

I know. Tennessee has a huge unprotected border....

but every time they try to close it those damn kentuckians tunnel under.

I'm going to reserve judgment until I hear what James Yeager has to say about it.

how about this folks: don't drink and drive. Anyone who does is an *******. Then, you won't have erratic driving behavior, then you won't need to get or refuse a breathalyzer. FYI drunk driving is not protected in the constitution and IMO is at least the equivalent of a ND.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

(In Indiana) At a checkpoint, if the officer has not read you implied consent, he/she has no PC to believe you are OWI and there cannot be PC for a warrant. You can refuse the SFST's and PBT's if those are the "tests" you are referring to. However, if the "test" you are talking about is the certified chemical test that will get your license suspended if you refuse, I would have to read you Implied Consent before offering you the test and thus I have PC to do so. You refuse after Implied Consent was read, you will be handcuffed and placed under arrest, then I apply for a warrant. We will got to Wishard Detention for the blood draw to be administered by a RN then dropped off at lock-up. There is a judge working 22hrs a day at lock-up so it's not hard to do.

Sooooo, let's say someone just didn't roll down their window at a checkpoint (in Indiana) what would be the outcome? I have literally never driven through a sobriety checkpoint and only a couple seatbelt checks when they were "legal."

 

[Hoosier8]

See my related post:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general-political-discussion/311644-rise-warrior-cop.html

If anybody is interested Radley Balko will be at Indy Reads this Thursday for a book signing.

Radley Balko Book Signing "Rise of the Warrior Cop" | Indy Reads Books | Written + Spoken Word, Social Justice, Politics | NUVO News | Indianapolis, IN

 

[ViperJock]

If anybody is interested Radley Balko will be at Indy Reads this Thursday for a book signing.

Radley Balko Book Signing "Rise of the Warrior Cop" | Indy Reads Books | Written + Spoken Word, Social Justice, Politics | NUVO News | Indianapolis, IN

This is totally unrelated to the OP. the problem here isn't "warrior cops" the problem are your elected officials who create the laws and policies which cops enforce.