the k9 truth

[rw496]

With "Chompy" being an available tool for the authorities to use to search seemingly any vehicle they want, what would be the motivation for accountability?

I don't want to search any car. I would prefer an accurate dog so I don't waste an hour searching a car on the side of the interstate in 100 degree weather for nothing.

 

[jeremy]

Yeah, I would think that would be the same, except maybe less margin for error on your part.

So we agree that you can build a sheet tracking how a K9 performs?!

 

[jeremy]

I don't want to search any car. I would prefer an accurate dog so I don't waste an hour searching a car on the side of the interstate in 100 degree weather for nothing.

But if you do not track how a dog performs, how do you know it is an accurate dog or not?!
How do you know what other influences might degrade the dogs ability?!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If you don't trust the officer, why would you trust the records he keeps on his narcotics stops?

It is not the officer doing the smelling, it is Chompy.

The officers are all now testifying that the dogs are batting 1.000. They are counting as hits when Chompy comes up empty. As it stands now the dogs are infallible and use of the dog is a free search.

Every time the dog gets out of the back of car, we keep track of how many times it finds something.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I don't want to search any car. I would prefer an accurate dog so I don't waste an hour searching a car on the side of the interstate in 100 degree weather for nothing.

Good point. The problem which holding this as a general principle is that you are a reasonable individual. That cannot be said of everyone. Some people would forego comfort and embrace misery as long as they could make someone else even more miserable in the process. I would also surmise that you are secure with yourself. Others may feel that upward mobility comes from the big score. A favorite of mine is the police superstition about vehicles with one headlight being almost a sure thing for something bigger (as explained to me by a senior member of a certain PD to whom I sent a less than complimentary letter). My guess is that the quest for forfeiture is a far more powerful influence with some others than it is with our own group of LEOs on INGO.

 

[cobber]

It is not the officer doing the smelling, it is Chompy.

The officers are all now testifying that the dogs are batting 1.000. They are counting as hits when Chompy comes up empty. As it stands now the dogs are infallible and use of the dog is a free search.

Every time the dog gets out of the back of car, we keep track of how many times it finds something.

The dog doesn't know whether there are a few molecules present, or a kilo of heroin. I'm not sure their noses can be trained so exactingly.

"Coming up empty" means the human operator could not find the source of the molecules, not that they weren't there.

Keep all the records you want, but it won't prove that there was nothing there. Only that a subsequent search failed to find a detectable amount of X.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The dog doesn't know whether there are a few molecules present, or a kilo of heroin. I'm not sure their noses can be trained so exactingly.

"Coming up empty" means the human operator could not find the source of the molecules, not that they weren't there.

Keep all the records you want, but it won't prove that there was nothing there. Only that a subsequent search failed to find a detectable amount of X.

This is technically true, but then again, most of our green cash has enough drug residue on it for the dog to indicate (and people have had significant amounts of money wrongly confiscated based on this). The dog will indicate on anything that has ever been in contact with drugs. This quickly degenerates into a 'kill all of them and let God sort them out' type of situation. Allowing a means of testing that will indicate nearly all to be within the realm of probably cause is simply not acceptable, and this is before you factor in the possibility of the dog being trained to indicate on cue of the officer's superstitions are set on edge.

 

[edporch]

UNTIL they get this corruption under control and have a system of accountability in place, they should pass the word that everybody sprinkle cayenne pepper powder in their vehicles as a protest.

 

[jeremy]

UNTIL they get this corruption under control and have a system of accountability in place, they should pass the word that everybody sprinkle cayenne pepper powder in their vehicles as a protest.

Even easier...

Just have a couple of Oreo's in the vehicle...

 

[rw496]

But if you do not track how a dog performs, how do you know it is an accurate dog or not?!
How do you know what other influences might degrade the dogs ability?!

You should track its performance through certifications of known amounts in controlled conditions. Drugs are different because of the factors I mentioned earlier. With explosives, imagine someone filled the trunk of a car with explosives let it sit for 12 hours then removed it and had your dog sniff the car. There is a good chance he would indicate. Would you consider that a fasle indication? That's a strike. Three cars like that and your dog's out and can't be used again in court The impossible part of Kirk's scenario is the uncertainty of field work. In testing conditions it's different because you control the variables and know that there is no residue or lingering odor.

 

[Bunnykid68]

If it is allowed for warrantless searches of cars, it is only a matter of time before someone tries to make it allowable for homes as well.

 

[rw496]

It is not the officer doing the smelling, it is Chompy.

The officers are all now testifying that the dogs are batting 1.000. They are counting as hits when Chompy comes up empty. As it stands now the dogs are infallible and use of the dog is a free search.

Every time the dog gets out of the back of car, we keep track of how many times it finds something.

The dog doesn't do the finding the officer does.

 

[Bunnykid68]

The dog doesn't do the finding the officer does.

Kirk is saying everytime the dog hits on something and the officer finds nothing it should go against the dogs batting average.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Kirk is saying everytime the dog hits on something and the officer finds nothing it should go against the dogs batting average.

Correct.

Right now the Ghost Molecules count as a hit and thus the 1.000 batting average.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If it is allowed for warrantless searches of cars, it is only a matter of time before someone tries to make it allowable for homes as well.

Boy, do I have some bad news for you. It's already being tried/done.

http://www.ai.org/judiciary/opinions/pdf/07140907msm.pdf

 

[IndyDave1776]

If it is allowed for warrantless searches of cars, it is only a matter of time before someone tries to make it allowable for homes as well.

I got the 'spread the rep' scold, again.

 

[TaunTaun]

I got the 'spread the rep' scold, again.

Got em for you.

 

[rw496]

Good point. The problem which holding this as a general principle is that you are a reasonable individual. That cannot be said of everyone. Some people would forego comfort and embrace misery as long as they could make someone else even more miserable in the process. I would also surmise that you are secure with yourself. Others may feel that upward mobility comes from the big score. A favorite of mine is the police superstition about vehicles with one headlight being almost a sure thing for something bigger (as explained to me by a senior member of a certain PD to whom I sent a less than complimentary letter). My guess is that the quest for forfeiture is a far more powerful influence with some others than it is with our own group of LEOs on INGO.

I appreciate being called reasonable. I have had plenty of big scores and still drive a car with 200,000 miles on it. I won't deny that all the things you guys suspect do in fact happen...and worse. The statement I always hear that annoys the hek out of me is something like...Drugs are ok, but we want to see the money....heard it a thousand times. My only argument at present is that Kirk's idea is a bad one.

 

[rw496]

Kirk is saying everytime the dog hits on something and the officer finds nothing it should go against the dogs batting average.

Right, and that's the problem. Maybe the officer sucks at searching cars. It is really a batting average for the officer not an accurate test of the dog's ability, which is the goal, right?

 

[edporch]

Quote:
Originally Posted by edporch
UNTIL they get this corruption under control and have a system of accountability in place, they should pass the word that everybody sprinkle cayenne pepper powder in their vehicles as a protest.

Even easier...

Just have a couple of Oreo's in the vehicle...

Oreo's may be good too.

But I read that cayenne pepper renders a drug sniffing dog out of commission for a few days after sniffing it.

There was somebody on another forum who told of being in the military.

All too often they would be getting ready to leave for town on a Friday night, and the MP's would tell them they had to wait until they did a practice drug sniffing.

Of course they MP's never found anything, and had no reason to believe drugs were even there.
They were just pissed because they had to work Friday night and were messing with people who had Friday evening free.


So the guys, getting fed up with having their Friday nights repeatedly ruined by MP's who were messing with them, decided to sprinkle cayenne powder around the room.

The poster said that when they did this, the drug sniffing dogs were out of commission til the next Tuesday.

He went on to say that after this happened a few times, the MP's quit messing with them.