the k9 truth

[jeremy]

Free legal advice for attorneys: You will never win the same old battle of going after a dog's ability..or the general ability of dogs. Maybe try the lack of any standard of performance, lack of any standard certification. Yeah, the dog was certified when he was purchased, but by the seller based on his criteria; that dog might have done nothing since then. Definitely look into the competence of the officer.

Exactly I would never go after the Dogs ability, however that still leaves tons of stuff to pursue. Handlers Competency, Lack of Certification both for the Dog and the Handler, Lack of refresher training. The list can go on and on...

 

[rw496]

Exactly I would never go after the Dogs ability, however that still leaves tons of stuff to pursue. Handlers Competency, Lack of Certification both for the Dog and the Handler, Lack of refresher training. The list can go on and on...

Yep. Kirk should hire you as an expert witness next time.

 

[jeremy]

Yep. Kirk should hire you as an expert witness next time.

Naw,

My forte is Patrol Dogs and Explosive Ordinance Dogs...
I think it would be far easier to find either a Drug Dog handler, or a Drug Dog Trainer...

 

[cobber]

Boy, do I have some bad news for you. It's already being tried/done.

http://www.ai.org/judiciary/opinions/pdf/07140907msm.pdf

What, no transfer?

I mean, it was so long ago I had hair.

Don't let KF fool y'all. He has plenty of hair, and it isn't even grey yet.

I am open to suggestions.

Portable gas chromatographs, programmed to detect controlled substances, their analogs, explosives and cadavers. I'm working on the patent as I write. Then we can finally let poor Officer Chompy have a rest.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Dogs make good pets, not good police officers

 

[level.eleven]

Am I the only who thinks this discussion is a little absurd? I am still trying to wrap my head around why dogs are able to used at all. It is openly admitted that dogs will smell things that are not there anymore. Why do dogs get more rights and leeway than the citizen? Perhaps I am letting my private sector and engineering experience get in the way, but if I submitted a proposal for a sensor that could detect objects that aren't actually there I would be laughed out the room. Logic would dictate that the system is not fit for production, unreliable, and well....dumb. I actually have a particular project in mind. It involved an eye to read an asset tag on a pallet. If the system I designed had the accuracy of a coin flip, I would be asking Obama for a flu shot. I understand it is the handler. That just makes it worse, in my opinion.

The war on drugs has gutted the 4th.

“Bono” is a state police drug dog in North Carolina. Of the 85 times Bono has alerted his handler to the presence of drugs, a subsequent search turned up actual drugs just 23 times.

That is batting .250. That is close to the Mendoza Line.

Bono “may not be a model of canine accuracy,” Conrad wrote in an opinion filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Roanoke.
However, the judge ruled that other factors, including the dog’s training and flawless performance during re-certification sessions, were enough to overcome a challenge raised by Green’s attorney, public defender Randy Cargill.
​

Good enough for government work, I guess.

“Good Enough” for Probable Cause | The Agitator

All of these K9 searches need to be recorded. I have seen plenty of videos where the handler leads the dog.

"Where's the drugs boy! Find the drugs!......Good Boy!"

 

[Bunnykid68]

Am I the only who thinks this discussion is a little absurd? I am still trying to wrap my head around why dogs are able to used at all. It is openly admitted that dogs will smell things that are not there anymore. Why do dogs get more rights and leeway than the citizen? Perhaps I am letting my private sector and engineering experience get in the way, but if I submitted a proposal for a sensor that could detect objects that aren't actually there I would be laughed out the room. Logic would dictate that the system is not fit for production, unreliable, and well....dumb. I actually have a particular project in mind. It involved an eye to read an asset tag on a pallet. If the system I designed had the accuracy of a coin flip, I would be asking Obama for a flu shot. I understand it is the handler. That just makes it worse, in my opinion.

The war on drugs has gutted the 4th.

“Bono” is a state police drug dog in North Carolina. Of the 85 times Bono has alerted his handler to the presence of drugs, a subsequent search turned up actual drugs just 23 times.

That is batting .250. That is close to the Mendoza Line.

Bono “may not be a model of canine accuracy,” Conrad wrote in an opinion filed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Roanoke.
However, the judge ruled that other factors, including the dog’s training and flawless performance during re-certification sessions, were enough to overcome a challenge raised by Green’s attorney, public defender Randy Cargill.
​

Good enough for government work, I guess.

“Good Enough” for Probable Cause | The Agitator

All of these K9 searches need to be recorded. I have seen plenty of videos where the handler leads the dog.

"Where's the drugs boy! Find the drugs!......Good Boy!"

Dogs are not laughed out of the room because those in charge are always looking for ways to get around the Constitution, yeah, I think that sums it up.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

All of these K9 searches need to be recorded. I have seen plenty of videos where the handler leads the dog.

That's part of the expansion of IRE 617 that I want. Field sobriety tests, Chompy's testimony, inter alia should all be recorded. Considering that 14 year girls at the mall have video capacity there is no excuse not to record it.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Why do dogs get more rights and leeway than the citizen?

Pffft, because the dog is used by the government.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I'm arriving late to the party on this discussion, but I have some experience with scent tracking dogs, their training, and evaluation as it applies to both Lost Person and Urban Search & Rescue scent dogs.

Dogs scent capability is about 25 thousand times better than humans; dogs can be trained to locate and track specific scents; because of the way dogs are trained, handler training and certification is as important as the certification and training of the dog; because dogs' noses are so sensitive, they can detect scent traces long after the substance has sublimated away or been cleaned off; because of the techniques used to train scent dogs, they can only work so long before they need a rest, or a play break; dogs which search diligently for a particular type scent get depressed and discouraged if they don't find that scent (or get the reward for finding it, which is what they want in the first place).

Both NASAR-certified SAR dogs and FEMA US&R search dogs must be re-certified every four years, IIRC, and are tested for their ability to find people, cadavers, etc. without prompting (cues) by their handler. I'm not familiar with the NASAR criteria for wilderness search dogs, but I am quite familiar with the standards for US&R dogs and their testing is extensive and specialized.

Other working scent dogs should be certified regularly under a strict set of criteria that establishes the dogs (and handlers) as being in compliance with standards established to determine their accuracy and ability to detect specific substances. Their training and deployments should be logged just as Jeremy says he does with his dogs because it's important for a handler to understand his dog's capabilities and limitations and be able to translate them into explainable terms for court records.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Ok, Kirk, so you're saying that Chompy hits, but I find nothing, that's a strike on the dog.

I'd say from this study, it's more likely a strike on the handler. The dogs only had a 15% success rate, yes 15% they had a 85% false positive rate.
Handler beliefs affect scent detection dog outcomes

How many times is a dog brought out to a car and does not hit on the car? Regardless of whether there is anything found. I bet they hit on the car damn near every single time just so the officer has a reason to search.

I'd really like an answer to this question.

Yes it should be counted against both the Dog and the Handler, but with the reasons for the False Positive hit to include environmental factors...

See the study I posted above.

Dogs are amazing creatures, but fallible without question. The degree of latitude the courts give dogs and their sometimes incompetent handlers is way excessive. I have seen dogs hit and there not be anything, dogs not hit and I had already found the compartment that was loaded, and handlers ask me where it's at so they can cue their dogs..it all happens. I am definitely in favor of some type of standard or certification. The only way, IMO, to test a dog's ability is through a scientific approach and like any other scientific method you have to control the variables to get an accurate result.

If they are going to be tested through the scientific approach, I'd really like to have it done by an outside company. Not with the police certifying them. Use their normal handlers but have the actual cert done by someone else.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Boy, do I have some bad news for you. It's already being tried/done.

http://www.ai.org/judiciary/opinions/pdf/07140907msm.pdf

There may be some good news coming up. SCOTUS granted cert to a similar case from Florida. Their supposed to hear it in OCT. Along with a car sniff case. I'm not holding my breath but one can always hope.
Champion - Police K-9's and the Constitution: What Every Lawyer and Judge Should Know