The Open Carry Argument

[yellowhousejake]

I thought the OP was a genuine and well thought out article. I know ATM well and I know he is not out to convert anyone, I am comfortable believing he started the thread with the thought it might be beneficial to the forum members.

I also kinda didn't feel like an INGO member until I posted in this thread with everyone else.

YHJ

 

[ATM]

...it might be beneficial to the forum members.

...if not mankind as a whole.

Glad to see you found the best thread on the whole interwebs, did you get snowed in today or what?

 

[yellowhousejake]

did you get snowed in today or what?

Currently mother nature is pruning my trees but no sign I will need a chainsaw to clear the drive like last time. We are just listening to the sound of limbs hitting the house, not much we can do about it. Did you know a 12ga is not enough shockwave to clear snow out of tree branches? (I open carried the 12 ga through the yard BTW)

I hope you and yours are faring well.

YHJ

 

[Skywired]

Currently mother nature is pruning my trees but no sign I will need a chainsaw to clear the drive like last time. We are just listening to the sound of limbs hitting the house, not much we can do about it. Did you know a 12ga is not enough shockwave to clear snow out of tree branches? (I open carried the 12 ga through the yard BTW)

I hope you and yours are faring well.

YHJ

.....No worries about a 5 yr. old girl stealing that 12 ga., eh? Must be a tough guy.....

LOL....

 

[ol' Huff]

ATM was at my wedding and deigned to place the hem of his polo over his pistol.* I considered it the highest of honors. Every time I open carry, which is fairly often, I think, "Man, that ATM is a good feller."



*I should note that many of our guests were making plans to open carry fairly obnoxious sized arms (one guy was working on his wife to make a cowboy style drop leg rig for his duck gun) with the express intent to unnerve some of my wife's fartlocker liberal relatives. In order head the fun off at the pass she asked for discretion. sigh

 

[ATM]

^ One of the extremely rare instances where it was not all about me.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

ATM was at my wedding and deigned to place the hem of his polo over his pistol.* I considered it the highest of honors. Every time I open carry, which is fairly often, I think, "Man, that ATM is a good feller."



*I should note that many of our guests were making plans to open carry fairly obnoxious sized arms (one guy was working on his wife to make a cowboy style drop leg rig for his duck gun) with the express intent to unnerve some of my wife's fartlocker liberal relatives. In order head the fun off at the pass she asked for discretion. sigh

ATM CC'd at your wedding, but I also saw people at your wedding openly carrying sub machine guns, battle rifles, all types of evil black rifles and a whole pile of rednecks with shotguns.

Your wife must have one hell of a sense of humor.

 

[ATM]

ATM CC'd at your wedding, but I also saw people at your wedding openly carrying sub machine guns, battle rifles, all types of evil black rifles and a whole pile of rednecks with shotguns.

Your wife must have one hell of a sense of humor.

Greatest wedding photo op ever...

 

[Lectric102002]

Greatest wedding photo op ever...

There is some significance that the groom has his weapon broken open and disabled. Usually happens after marriage.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Greatest wedding photo op ever...

Somebody should have let the little grey bearded, oriental guy with the Santa hat up front so he could have been in the picture too.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Pfft, hillbillies.

 

[TJ Kackowski]

Somebody should have let the little grey bearded, oriental guy with the Santa hat up front so he could have been in the picture too.

Oh, he's there ... you just don't recognize him when he's not wearing his INGO disguise and just looks like a mild mannered reporter ... or is that a playboy millionaire? I always get them confused.

 

[johnny112704]

It doesn't matter to myself if people open or conceal carry. I conceal mine myself, I feel I have better control with the kids. And people in general do get nervous when they see someone open carry a firearm. But the argument is about if someone will do an act of violence towards you if you open or conceal, I don't believe it matters at all. Criminals will attack a police officer and they open carry. So does the argument really stand I don't believe so. My mane concern when I carry is to be safe, concealment I feel to have a little more control. Of my firearm, but this is just an opinion, but the less average joe knows about my personal tools I have on my body the better off I am.

 

[protias]

It doesn't matter to myself if people open or conceal carry. I conceal mine myself, I feel I have better control with the kids. And people in general do get nervous when they see someone open carry a firearm. But the argument is about if someone will do an act of violence towards you if you open or conceal, I don't believe it matters at all. Criminals will attack a police officer and they open carry. So does the argument really stand I don't believe so. My mane concern when I carry is to be safe, concealment I feel to have a little more control. Of my firearm, but this is just an opinion, but the less average joe knows about my personal tools I have on my body the better off I am.

So what you are saying is, you didn't read the first post...

 

[ATM]

...Criminals will attack a police officer and they open carry. So does the argument really stand I don't believe so...

So you don't see any difference between attacking a police officer who may be actively trying to take them into custody and attacking an armed citizen who is no threat to their freedom or life if simply left alone?

Lucky for us, most criminals acknowledge the difference even if you'd never considered it. The argument really does stand.

 

[danielson]

I do not believe having a firearm, and advertising that fact is going to keep you safe. In the same way NOT advertising the presence of a firearm doesnt make you necessarily less safe.

OC, CC, it doesnt matter, not really. Crime happens everywhere, where firearms are present and where there not.

Lifes a gamble, and for every possible opportunity that OC could be the best choice, theres an opportunity where CC could be.

Do what you like, what you feel comfortable with, and train to do it well. But most importantly, dont be a frikin snob about it. You carry the way you carry, and others carry the way they do. Get over it, and be happy were all family.

JFC

 

[ATM]

I do not believe having a firearm, and advertising that fact is going to keep you safe.

Of course not, when you state it as an absolute like that. Nobody attempts to make such a claim.
However, evidence suggests that not hiding the fact you are armed is a direct deterrent to most criminals as they weigh risk/reward in their selection of a victim.

In the same way NOT advertising the presence of a firearm doesnt make you necessarily less safe.

I don't know about that. Now you have to add back in at least some of those criminals who would have been deterred had they known you were armed. With more of the criminal pool considering you as a possible target, your odds of being selected increase. That sure seems less safe to me.

OC, CC, it doesnt matter, not really. Crime happens everywhere, where firearms are present and where there not.

Crime certainly happens everywhere, but I challenge you to compare the instances and frequency of crime against citizens known to be armed vs. citizens of unknown or disarmed status (i.e. in gun prohibited zones) and still suggest that it doesn't matter.

If most criminals would choose to avoid you simply because they know you are armed, that matters. Suggesting that it doesn't would be hard for you to support.

Lifes a gamble, and for every possible opportunity that OC could be the best choice, theres an opportunity where CC could be.

I can only agree with that equality of opportunity if you are including the criminals who utilize concealment to their advantage in the offensive act of hiding their intentions prior to surprising their would-be victim.

And, sure, life's a gamble, but it would be disingenuous to portray it as one fixed-odds game where strategy has no bearing. Smart players craft their "gameplay" with different systems for different games which minimizes the overall odds against them while maximizing their chances of gaining or at least breaking even. They don't tend to make "sucker bets" or even play the games with a higher "house" advantage. Shrewd gamblers do far better over the long haul than do the ignorant.

Do what you like, what you feel comfortable with, and train to do it well. But most importantly, dont be a frikin snob about it. You carry the way you carry, and others carry the way they do.

Absolutely.

Get over it, and be happy were all family.

JFC

Get over what?

 

[danielson]

Answers in bold:

Of course not, when you state it as an absolute like that. Nobody attempts to make such a claim.
However, evidence suggests that not hiding the fact you are armed is a direct deterrent to most criminals as they weigh risk/reward in their selection of a victim.

My point is, dont bank on that working. Gang bangers kill other gang bangers everyday, who are knowingly armed. If you are enticing enough to someone, that gun on your hip isnt going to stop them.

I don't know about that. Now you have to add back in at least some of those criminals who would have been deterred had they known you were armed. With more of the criminal pool considering you as a possible target, your odds of being selected increase. That sure seems less safe to me.

I understand where your coming from, but what Im saying is, ALOT of crime is spontaneous, and not perpetrated by those with enough clarity of mind to be checking people for guns. I can just see alot of criminals not even seeing your gun before they rob the store your in. Obviously, if were talking about a higher class of criminal, this does not apply. Im speaking only of the large percentage of crimes that are perpetrated by people who dont think too much.

Crime certainly happens everywhere, but I challenge you to compare the instances and frequency of crime against citizens known to be armed vs. citizens of unknown or disarmed status (i.e. in gun prohibited zones) and still suggest that it doesn't matter.

I agree, that advertising a gun free zone, lets premeditated criminals know where to strike, by allowing them to safely assume the law abiding people will not be armed.
Im speaking of places where there are no blanket firearms policies. Its impossible to know everyone who is armed and who isnt, on top of the point I made above about a large percentage of spur of the moment crime, conducted by people who arent known for their savvy, its safe to assume, theres a large percentage of criminals who dont even think about you being armed.

If most criminals would choose to avoid you simply because they know you are armed, that matters. Suggesting that it doesn't would be hard for you to support.

Any sane person would follow this line of though, yes. I just wouldnt bet my life on it, is all Im saying.

I can only agree with that equality of opportunity if you are including the criminals who utilize concealment to their advantage in the offensive act of hiding their intentions prior to surprising their would-be victim.

And, sure, life's a gamble, but it would be disingenuous to portray it as one fixed-odds game where strategy has no bearing. Smart players craft their "gameplay" with different systems for different games which minimizes the overall odds against them while maximizing their chances of gaining or at least breaking even. They don't tend to make "sucker bets" or even play the games with a higher "house" advantage. Shrewd gamblers do far better over the long haul than do the ignorant.

I do not think there is a play book when it comes to incredibly dynamic situations such as those a 2A'er might find himself in. Im not a soldier, or an operator, or even a badass. I do not plan to spend the rest of my life doing tactical training, or tacticool training either, for that matter. I do however plan on making sure that If I am FORCED to remove my weapon from its holster, that I can do what has to be done as quickly and carefully as possible. Part of that, IMO, is making sure a firearm is AN option. Not the ONLY option. Im not looking to go to guns unless I have NO choice.

Get over what?

Not directed at you, its directed at those who try to discourage any particular method of carry.

 

[ATM]

Answers in bold:
My point is, dont bank on that working. Gang bangers kill other gang bangers everyday, who are knowingly armed. If you are enticing enough to someone, that gun on your hip isnt going to stop them.

Yes, yes, and cops as well... we get it. Again, nobody attempts to make such a claim or "banks on it working". Please accept or debate OC as a general deterrent rather than further tearing down the "magical talisman will keep you safe" strawman argument.

I understand where your coming from, but what Im saying is, ALOT of crime is spontaneous, and not perpetrated by those with enough clarity of mind to be checking people for guns. I can just see alot of criminals not even seeing your gun before they rob the store your in. Obviously, if were talking about a higher class of criminal, this does not apply. Im speaking only of the large percentage of crimes that are perpetrated by people who dont think too much.

I don't think you've offered anything here to refute the increased odds, but I would like to know why you assume that "ALOT" of crime is spontaneous.
Do you have anything with which to counter the points from the Five Stages of Violent Crime in the OP?
I mean, they don't have to be brilliant to develop or adopt basic survival instincts and tactics - most animals can do that.

I agree, that advertising a gun free zone, lets premeditated criminals know where to strike, by allowing them to safely assume the law abiding people will not be armed. Im speaking of places where there are no blanket firearms policies. Its impossible to know everyone who is armed and who isnt,

Yet you somehow still want to dismiss any safety advantage gained by a citizen who is known to be armed?
I'm not sure how you could reconcile both of those general beliefs.

...on top of the point I made above about a large percentage of spur of the moment crime, conducted by people who arent known for their savvy, its safe to assume, theres a large percentage of criminals who dont even think about you being armed.

I think it's safe to assume that you're simply assuming all of this. Please elaborate and support this theory if you want to convince me.

Any sane person would follow this line of though, yes. I just wouldnt bet my life on it, is all Im saying.

I know, sane people love rational lines of thought, am I right? The strawman fallacy was already addressed above - believing a fact and adapting to gain a possible advantage from it does not equate to betting one's life on it as their new sole sufficiency.

I do not think there is a play book when it comes to incredibly dynamic situations such as those a 2A'er might find himself in. Im not a soldier, or an operator, or even a badass. I do not plan to spend the rest of my life doing tactical training, or tacticool training either, for that matter. I do however plan on making sure that If I am FORCED to remove my weapon from its holster, that I can do what has to be done as quickly and carefully as possible. Part of that, IMO, is making sure a firearm is AN option. Not the ONLY option. Im not looking to go to guns unless I have NO choice.

You keep stressing just having a gun while attempting to discount the fact that it may not even need to be drawn or fired to have an impact on your overall safety. Do you minimize its role to being employed as a bullet launcher after you need it, if that option remains possible?

Yes, it's just a tool, but your desire to relegate its function to a hidden position of uselessness during the critical period prior to finding yourself in a dynamic situation has me baffled.

Not directed at you, its directed at those who try to discourage any particular method of carry.

I try to be encouraging.

 

[IUprof]

Whip it good!

Four years and 222 pages