The Open Carry Argument

[lonehoosier]

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IF they concealed their contempt as well as they concealed their handgun, it would be a much more meaningful conversation.

Sig worthy.

 

[Kephas78]

There are positives and negatives to almost everything.

If there was nothing positive about open carry, then neither police nor military personnel would ever do it. It provides easier access(both a positive and negative) and serves as a visual deterrent.

Yes, theoretically it could make you a more likely target. However, this argument always struck me as more of a Hollywood based argument. If anyone is aware of any actual statistics to back it up, i'd love to see them.

The biggest benefit of conceal carry is not having to deal with people who become irrationally fearful at the mere sight of an armed citizen.

 

[chipbennett]

There are positives and negatives to almost everything.

If there was nothing positive about open carry, then neither police nor military personnel would ever do it. It provides easier access(both a positive and negative) and serves as a visual deterrent.

Yes, theoretically it could make you a more likely target. However, this argument always struck me as more of a Hollywood based argument. If anyone is aware of any actual statistics to back it up, i'd love to see them.

The biggest benefit of conceal carry is not having to deal with people who become irrationally fearful at the mere sight of an armed citizen.

I've been asking for these data for years now. So far: nothing.

 

[2A_Tom]

But there have been a lot of anecdotes.

 

[MCgrease08]

The biggest benefit of conceal carry is not having to deal with people who become irrationally fearful at the mere sight of an armed citizen.

Someone else's irrational fear is not my problem. I don't have the time or the empathy to care about their delicate consitution.

To me, the biggest benefit of open carry has nothing to do with tactics.

To me the benefit of open carry is the opportunities it provides. The opportunity to strike up a conversation about carrying and preserving the Second Amendment. The opportunity to educate the curious or uninformed about safe gun handling and Indiana gun law. The opportunity to normalize being armed and to demonstrate that most of us "gun nuts" are nice folks who just want to live our lives and spend time with our families like everybody else.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

There are positives and negatives to almost everything.

If there was nothing positive about open carry, then neither police nor military personnel would ever do it. It provides easier access(both a positive and negative) and serves as a visual deterrent.

Yes, theoretically it could make you a more likely target. However, this argument always struck me as more of a Hollywood based argument. If anyone is aware of any actual statistics to back it up, i'd love to see them.

The biggest benefit of conceal carry is not having to deal with people who become irrationally fearful at the mere sight of an armed citizen.

Welcome to INGO! Well said!

 

[Kephas78]

Someone else's irrational fear is not my problem. I don't have the time or the empathy to care about their delicate consitution.

Unfortunately it can become your problem when you are asked to leave an establishment, or someone calls the police. I'm certain some locales like bloomington, Hammond, etc are worse than others. Depending upon your locale, police will either just shake your hand and move on, berate you, or even take custody of your firearm "for officer safety". Thankfully the last seems to be less and less common an occurrence.
The point is... some of us just don't want to deal with the BS that can happen. Some of us aren't as extroverted and social as others.

Having said all that. I GREATLY appreciate that you open carry it and use it as an opportunity to educate and normalize it. I'd personally like to see people casually walking down the sidewalk carrying a shotgun/rifle without people freaking out. That's obviously a long way off, especially in certain locales. However, we only get to that point when it becomes normalized. It only becomes normalized after it starts happening on a semi-regular basis and people get used to it. Sure some people will always not like it, but they'll grudgingly tolerate it as the norm..... or move to California and leave us alone.

 

[Kephas78]

I've been asking for these data for years now. So far: nothing.

That's because it's near impossible to tell precisely WHY a shooter targeted certain people and in what order, especially if the assailant is killed.

 

[2A_Tom]

Unfortunately it can become your problem when you are asked to leave an establishment, or someone calls the police. I'm certain some locales like bloomington, Hammond, etc are worse than others. Depending upon your locale, police will either just shake your hand and move on, berate you, or even take custody of your firearm "for officer safety". Thankfully the last seems to be less and less common an occurrence.
The point is... some of us just don't want to deal with the BS that can happen. Some of us aren't as extroverted and social as others.

Having said all that. I GREATLY appreciate that you open carry it and use it as an opportunity to educate and normalize it. I'd personally like to see people casually walking down the sidewalk carrying a shotgun/rifle without people freaking out. That's obviously a long way off, especially in certain locales. However, we only get to that point when it becomes normalized. It only becomes normalized after it starts happening on a semi-regular basis and people get used to it. Sure some people will always not like it, but they'll grudgingly tolerate it as the norm..... or move to California and leave us alone.

I have born the brunt of Your sort of "problems" in the past. For several years now it has gotten much better and the letters I've written have had an effect on the local departments. I tend toward introversion, but I can talk effectivly if I am well informed on the subject.

Here is a link for some of my encounters.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...nse/382960-you-may-want-reconsider-oc-if.html

 

[Kephas78]

I will say that open carry does make it easier for someone to disarm you. Police officers have been aware of this for decades and decades. There are lots of ways to minimize this risk.
Situational awareness and enforcing/maintaining personal space. These are a good idea anyway, but are a better idea if carrying(even concealed).
Where you carry on your body makes a difference. Carrying at 5 O'clock makes it a lot easier for someone to blindside you than 1 O'clock.
Retention holsters make a big difference.

Having said that, concealed carriers that don't take precautions against being disarmed have a greater risk than an open carrier who has taken precautions.

 

[protias]

I will say that open carry does make it easier for someone to disarm you. Police officers have been aware of this for decades and decades. There are lots of ways to minimize this risk.
Situational awareness and enforcing/maintaining personal space. These are a good idea anyway, but are a better idea if carrying(even concealed).
Where you carry on your body makes a difference. Carrying at 5 O'clock makes it a lot easier for someone to blindside you than 1 O'clock.
Retention holsters make a big difference.

Having said that, concealed carriers that don't take precautions against being disarmed have a greater risk than an open carrier who has taken precautions.

How many times have OCers been disarmed (aka, a gun grab)?

 

[wtburnette]

How many times have OCers been disarmed (aka, a gun grab)?

That's a good question. I've heard of it happening, but have never heard any real stats on the issue. Would be nice to know. Right now, I know that it happens, but in my mind I consider it a fairly rare event. My thought is that situational awareness is a mitigating factor in a lot of cases that prevents this from being more prevalent. I also have to contrast this in my mind with how often concealed carriers are targeted because criminals think they're unarmed and therefore soft targets. It's almost impossible to prove that, for statistical purposes, but that's the contrast in my mind when debating CC vs OC. Do I OC with better access to my weapon and have the possibility of deterring criminals, running a slight risk of being disarmed, or do I CC with slightly worse access to my weapon, losing any possibility of deterrence and possibly be targeted due to seeming like a softer target. I think everyone has to make up their own mind, based on numerous factors and then just gain comfort with that decision. Carrying is the most important thing and training in the manner that you carry, at least to me.

 

[chipbennett]

That's a good question. I've heard of it happening, but have never heard any real stats on the issue. Would be nice to know.

There are statistics on LEO being disarmed. If needed, I can find the numbers later. But IIRC, the primary issue with LEO was retention training, which caused an already low rate of disarming to drop even further. I want to say FBI keeps those statistics?

 

[protias]

That's a good question. I've heard of it happening, but have never heard any real stats on the issue. Would be nice to know. Right now, I know that it happens, but in my mind I consider it a fairly rare event. My thought is that situational awareness is a mitigating factor in a lot of cases that prevents this from being more prevalent. I also have to contrast this in my mind with how often concealed carriers are targeted because criminals think they're unarmed and therefore soft targets. It's almost impossible to prove that, for statistical purposes, but that's the contrast in my mind when debating CC vs OC. Do I OC with better access to my weapon and have the possibility of deterring criminals, running a slight risk of being disarmed, or do I CC with slightly worse access to my weapon, losing any possibility of deterrence and possibly be targeted due to seeming like a softer target. I think everyone has to make up their own mind, based on numerous factors and then just gain comfort with that decision. Carrying is the most important thing and training in the manner that you carry, at least to me.

I can think of 4 or 5 instances of OCers getting targeted, making that a statistical zero. One can read daily occurrences of someone CCing defending themselves from a criminal.

 

[wtburnette]

I can think of 4 or 5 instances of OCers getting targeted, making that a statistical zero. One can read daily occurrences of someone CCing defending themselves from a criminal.

I've heard similar statistics. The question in my mind is, if those CCers were OCing instead, would they have been in the same position where they had to defend themselves? According to studies by John Lott, Jr. and others, there would have been a high likelihood that most of the criminals in those cases would have been deterred and sought other targets.

 

[NAM67-68]

I will say that open carry does make it easier for someone to disarm you. Police officers have been aware of this for decades and decades. There are lots of ways to minimize this risk.
Situational awareness and enforcing/maintaining personal space. These are a good idea anyway, but are a better idea if carrying(even concealed).
Where you carry on your body makes a difference. Carrying at 5 O'clock makes it a lot easier for someone to blindside you than 1 O'clock.
Retention holsters make a big difference.

Having said that, concealed carriers that don't take precautions against being disarmed have a greater risk than an open carrier who has taken precautions.

As a US Army Vietnam Veteran 67-68, I have a Fobus holster that takes quite of bit of effort to remove my Glock, in a straight up motion. I am also constantly checking out people and my surroundings. In movie theaters I position myself to have sight of the emergency exit and the entrance and to have a clear line of fire if a perpetrator comes in with a long gun. My OC has started conversations and they have all been positive. Police Officers don't give me a second look. I walk erect and look directly at anyone who gets close to me. I think that CC is fine, I just prefer to open carry. I started in 1967 with a 1911A1 and now a Glock model 22, which is hard to conceal. In cool weather I do wear a light jacket so that I can enter "gun free" zones.

 

[gglass]

As a US Army Vietnam Veteran 67-68, I have a Fobus holster that takes quite of bit of effort to remove my Glock, in a straight up motion. I am also constantly checking out people and my surroundings. In movie theaters I position myself to have sight of the emergency exit and the entrance and to have a clear line of fire if a perpetrator comes in with a long gun. My OC has started conversations and they have all been positive. Police Officers don't give me a second look. I walk erect and look directly at anyone who gets close to me. I think that CC is fine, I just prefer to open carry. I started in 1967 with a 1911A1 and now a Glock model 22, which is hard to conceal. In cool weather I do wear a light jacket so that I can enter "gun free" zones.

I carry both OC and CC, and I don't give much thought either way since I try to maintain the same high situational awareness no matter how I carry. Like you, I have found that things like appearance and the way I carry myself keeps the gawkers and questions to near zero when I open carry. The biggest reason that folks like you and I do not get questioned or harrassed for open carry is due to the fact that people communicate far more in non-verbal ways than verbal, and just looking like it is natural and ordinary to open carry in a confident manner keeps unwanted interactions at bay.

 

[LostWander]

Only way I can OC here in FL is if I'm hunting or fishing. Weird but at least have it available. Main issue it annoys me we dont have real OC is just that I'd like to not go to jail if my CC gun accidentally exposes bc my son or something pulls my shirt up. Thankfully we can print these days.

Thing I've noticed when visiting my brother in IN is that even when ppl OC...people tend not to notice bc theyre not trained to scan someones belt line or just dont seem to care. I can only assume any OC disarms are statistically insignificant. It's like when I hear pro gun control saying that if we allow CC, it'll be the OK Corral in the streets every day

 

[rhino]

Thing I've noticed when visiting my brother in IN is that even when ppl OC...people tend not to notice bc theyre not trained to scan someones belt line or just dont seem to care. I can only assume any OC disarms are statistically insignificant. It's like when I hear pro gun control saying that if we allow CC, it'll be the OK Corral in the streets every day

And you are correct!

 

[actaeon277]

Only way I can OC here in FL is if I'm hunting or fishing. Weird but at least have it available. Main issue it annoys me we dont have real OC is just that I'd like to not go to jail if my CC gun accidentally exposes bc my son or something pulls my shirt up. Thankfully we can print these days.

Thing I've noticed when visiting my brother in IN is that even when ppl OC...people tend not to notice bc theyre not trained to scan someones belt line or just dont seem to care. I can only assume any OC disarms are statistically insignificant. It's like when I hear pro gun control saying that if we allow CC, it'll be the OK Corral in the streets every day

Kids seem to notice, probably because it's level with their eyes.

I had a shop owner (that I've known my whole life) telling me he thought he'd be able to spot somebody concealing a gun.
I was standing in front of him with my openly carried .357 S&W Model 19.
A big assed gun. Well, at least moderately so.
And he wasn't even seeing that.
When I pointed it out to him, his eyes bugged out. And he asked how long I'd been carrying it in his shop. I told him it had been a few years openly carried. But that I had been conceal carrying in his shop a couple decades. And I told him a few of his customers also were, if he knew the signs to look for.
So, then he made the statement, "Well, if someone robs the shop.... let him. He probably needs the money for food."
I let it go.