This scares the **** out of me and I don't have children

[88GT]

As someone who ended up in the hospital with chicken pox I sure don't see it as benign. If I could have been vaccinated against it I would have been gladly. Admittedly that makes me VERY bias.

The question though is what constitutes abuse, and who decides that? Some (myself included) would argue that something like a chicken pox party counts as abuse.

Thanks for the detail on vaccination studies though, I found that both informative and interesting. I obviously have more research to do in that area.

The problem is that the risk of a round with chicken pox becoming severe/serious enough to warrant hospitalization is roughly the same risk one has of developing the severe/serious adverse effects of the vaccine. With the chicken pox vax you're not improving your risk of incidence of severe/serious outcomes, you're merely transferring it from the disease to the vax.

Most of the other more commonly administered childhood vaxes have much greater disparities in risk of incidence from the disease than the vax, which makes them--from that standpoint--better vax options than others. I will never vax for the flu for the same reason.

 

[Bill B]

There are two vaccinnes I will never get again. The first is the flu shot. when I was in the Army we got the flu shot every year, and every year I got sick as heck. They always said that it was "a different strain" than the one we were vaccinated for, but the results were the same, got the shot got sick. I'm not saying I don't ever get the flu now, but it isn't every year like it used to be and in the last 18 years I've only missed work 3 times.
The second is the tetnaus shot. The last time I got one I had a "localized reaction" the injection site looked like there was a golf ball under it, fever, etc. Dr. said to never get another one.
If you look at who is supposed to get the flu shot, most of us aren't in the demographic; but they sure do shove them down our throat, don't they?

 

[revsaxon]

TThe first is the flu shot. when I was in the Army we got the flu shot every year, and every year I got sick as heck.

To quote Lewis Black "The flu shot works by giving you a cold the other 364 days of the year"

 

[rambone]

The government forces education requirements on kids, is that tyranny?

Compulsory government education? Are you serious?

YES!

Its totally anti-freedom, anti-free market, anti-small government, anti-keep-your-tax-dollars. The same could be said for government health care and many other collectivist programs.

Or should we let each parent decide if their kid is going to learn math or not?

Freedom means that you have to put up with nonsense. They are hardly learning anything useful in these pathetic government institutions. I can't imagine people being any worse off.

 

[88GT]

The government forces education requirements on kids, is that tyranny? Or should we let each parent decide if their kid is going to learn math or not?

Yes, and yes.

 

[rambone]

when I was in the Army we got the flu shot every year, and every year I got sick as heck. They always said that it was "a different strain" than the one we were vaccinated for, but the results were the same, got the shot got sick.

There's an excuse for everything.

They sure have a low bar of success set for a science that everyone is taught saved humanity 100 times over.

 

[revsaxon]

Compulsory government education? Are you serious?

YES!

Its totally anti-freedom, anti-free market, anti-small government, anti-keep-your-tax-dollars. The same could be said for government health care and many other collectivist programs.


Freedom means that you have to put up with nonsense. They are hardly learning anything useful in these pathetic government institutions. I can't imagine people being any worse off.

Are you serious or just trolling? As a graduate of one of those "pathetic government institutions" I can say I learned a hell of a lot. I couldn't live my life/do my job without what I learned. Maybe my parents could have taught me, but odds are good they couldn't have as they knew nothing about the area I eventually went into.

We as humanity have tried just letting parents do whatever they like with their children. It was called the dark ages.

 

[88GT]

Are you serious or just trolling? As a graduate of one of those "pathetic government institutions" I can say I learned a hell of a lot. I couldn't live my life/do my job without what I learned. Maybe my parents could have taught me, but odds are good they couldn't have as they knew nothing about the area I eventually went into.

We as humanity have tried just letting parents do whatever they like with their children. It was called the dark ages.

Baloney. Government-backed, publicly-funded education is the exception, not the norm historically.

 

[revsaxon]

Baloney. Government-backed, publicly-funded education is the exception, not the norm historically.

I know, but I was enjoying playing with rambone.

Seriously though, I do think there has to be some minimums on what children should learn if not just so they arnt a burden on the system (whether or not there should BE a system is up for debate, but its not going anywhere anytime soon). More power to those who home school, but for many thats not an option.

 

[rambone]

Are you serious or just trolling? As a graduate of one of those "pathetic government institutions" I can say I learned a hell of a lot. I couldn't live my life/do my job without what I learned. Maybe my parents could have taught me, but odds are good they couldn't have as they knew nothing about the area I eventually went into.

We as humanity have tried just letting parents do whatever they like with their children. It was called the dark ages.

I'm serious as a vaccine reaction.

I've tutored quite a few of these public school graduates, when they get to college and learn that they don't adequately know math skills that I learned in 7th grade.

That doesn't mean that NOBODY succeeds. It just implies that public schools produce a pretty pathetic success rate in order to justify so much freedom/money being taken.

 

[revsaxon]

I'm serious as a vaccine reaction.

That doesn't mean that NOBODY succeeds. It just implies that public schools produce a pretty pathetic success rate in order to justify so much freedom/money being taken.

I cannot argue with that. I agree that sucess rates are terrible, and not worth the money, but some is better than none in this case

 

[88GT]

I know, but I was enjoying playing with rambone.

Seriously though, I do think there has to be some minimums on what children should learn if not just so they arnt a burden on the system (whether or not there should BE a system is up for debate, but its not going anywhere anytime soon). More power to those who home school, but for many thats not an option.

Homeschooling is always an option. It may not be a practical one or a comfortable one, but it's always an option.

And frankly, if there isn't some level of education taking place in the home, a parent isn't doing his job.

 

[revsaxon]

Homeschooling is always an option. It may not be a practical one or a comfortable one, but it's always an option.

And frankly, if there isn't some level of education taking place in the home, a parent isn't doing his job.

How can a single mother who needs to work full time to put food on the table home school her kids?

I guess if she went on welfare or something its possible, but that seems to be trading one evil (non-reliance on yourself and your own means) for another (public schools)

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

On a serious note I believe parents should have (in almost all cases) the final authority to make the decisions regarding their children. The reason I won't say "100% of the time" is because I believe there is always a situation that defies the 100% rule, even if I am too ignorant to think of it now.

However, when parents are making decisions regarding the care and welfare of their children they should make these decisions based upon the best facts and information available and NOT anecdotal stories.

ALMOST every single thing we put into our bodies could kill someone. The popcorn I just ate could cause an allergic reaction in someone, somewhere. The diet pop I am drinking could cause someone, somewhere to die.

Obviously the same goes for drugs, chemicals, vaccines and so on. This does NOT mean that we don't eat, take medicine to live, or vaccinate ourselves to avoid illness. It means that we measure the risks of doing a thing versus the risk associated with not doing a thing. Then we make the best decision we can.

As near as I can find there is not a single scientific, peer reviewed study to show that the HPV vaccine has significant risks. This is NOT to say that there are NO risks, but that the risks of serious adverse reaction are, as current data shows, insignificant.

If those against the use of the vaccine have a link to a scientific, peer reviewed study showing statistics I would be happy to reconsider my position.

As per a recent interview on NPR by Diane Rehm 35 million doses of HPV vaccine have been dispensed.

Audio Player | The Diane Rehm Show from WAMU and NPR

That is quite a few doses and if there were a significant risk it would have probably shown itself by now.

One of the wonderful things about the internet is the ability to utilize a vast array of resources in doing research. With this then comes the sad reality that anyone can post anything and make it look like a credible source of information.

In our history many drugs HAVE been removed from the market WHEN proof of their danger has been proven. This has yet to occur w/ the HPV vaccine.

List of withdrawn drugs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Throughout history there have been tragic and regrettable losses of life and health due to the introduction of new medicines and technologies. We only need to look at the introduction of almost any procedure or innovation to see tragedy and wasted lives. When the X-Ray was first introduced we didn't understand the full effects of radiation. Later, we came up with annual limits. Penicillin has been a boon for millions yet some have probably died from its use. If we look at one (1) statistic in the US Army during WWI 18% of the troops who contracted pneumonia died. During WWII with the use of penicillin this percentage was reduced to <1%.

Following hypothetical: I have pneumonia. Without penicillin there is almost a 1 in 5 chance I will die. With penicillin there is less than a 1 in 100 chance I will die. Which do I choose? (Do I really have to answer??)

Today posit the following question: Do I get a vaccine for a disease with certain statistical probabilities of death OR do I not get the vaccine? My answer should be based upon scientific facts that are in turn based upon the best data available when I make my decision, NOT the fear-mongering of people who are, with the best of intentions, supplying NO information beyond anecdotal stories.

Where I would really love to see research focused is on the development of testing to determine our statistical chances of experiencing a negative reaction. Alas, such testing is not available and may never become available.

To those who have had friends or family suffer I have no intention to demean or diminish the pain, loss and suffering you and your loved ones have endured. All such loss for everyone throughout history is suffering that I wish had never occurred. My only hope with this is to illuminate the idea that cause of their injury may not have come from the origin you suspect. Yet I know this does nothing to comfort those who suffer from the damage done.

Regards,

Doug

 

[88GT]

How can a single mother who needs to work full time to put food on the table home school her kids?

I guess if she went on welfare or something its possible, but that seems to be trading one evil (non-reliance on yourself and your own means) for another (public schools)

I don't know. I'll have to ask the single working mom on the homeschool email list how she does it.

 

[revsaxon]

I don't know. I'll have to ask the single working mom on the homeschool email list how she does it.

Please do. I would be very curious about her answer.

 

[WWIIIDefender]

To All,

On a serious note I believe parents should have (in almost all cases) the final authority to make the decisions regarding their children. The reason I won't say "100% of the time" is because I believe there is always a situation that defies the 100% rule, even if I am too ignorant to think of it now.

However, when parents are making decisions regarding the care and welfare of their children they should make these decisions based upon the best facts and information available and NOT anecdotal stories.

ALMOST every single thing we put into our bodies could kill someone. The popcorn I just ate could cause an allergic reaction in someone, somewhere. The diet pop I am drinking could cause someone, somewhere to die.

Obviously the same goes for drugs, chemicals, vaccines and so on. This does NOT mean that we don't eat, take medicine to live, or vaccinate ourselves to avoid illness. It means that we measure the risks of doing a thing versus the risk associated with not doing a thing. Then we make the best decision we can.

As near as I can find there is not a single scientific, peer reviewed study to show that the HPV vaccine has significant risks. This is NOT to say that there are NO risks, but that the risks of serious adverse reaction are, as current data shows, insignificant.

If those against the use of the vaccine have a link to a scientific, peer reviewed study showing statistics I would be happy to reconsider my position.

As per a recent interview on NPR by Diane Rehm 35 million doses of HPV vaccine have been dispensed.

Audio Player | The Diane Rehm Show from WAMU and NPR

That is quite a few doses and if there were a significant risk it would have probably shown itself by now.

One of the wonderful things about the internet is the ability to utilize a vast array of resources in doing research. With this then comes the sad reality that anyone can post anything and make it look like a credible source of information.

In our history many drugs HAVE been removed from the market WHEN proof of their danger has been proven. This has yet to occur w/ the HPV vaccine.

List of withdrawn drugs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Throughout history there have been tragic and regrettable losses of life and health due to the introduction of new medicines and technologies. We only need to look at the introduction of almost any procedure or innovation to see tragedy and wasted lives. When the X-Ray was first introduced we didn't understand the full effects of radiation. Later, we came up with annual limits. Penicillin has been a boon for millions yet some have probably died from its use. If we look at one (1) statistic in the US Army during WWI 18% of the troops who contracted pneumonia died. During WWII with the use of penicillin this percentage was reduced to <1%.

Following hypothetical: I have pneumonia. Without penicillin there is almost a 1 in 5 chance I will die. With penicillin there is less than a 1 in 100 chance I will die. Which do I choose? (Do I really have to answer??)

Today posit the following question: Do I get a vaccine for a disease with certain statistical probabilities of death OR do I not get the vaccine? My answer should be based upon scientific facts that are in turn based upon the best data available when I make my decision, NOT the fear-mongering of people who are, with the best of intentions, supplying NO information beyond anecdotal stories.

Where I would really love to see research focused is on the development of testing to determine our statistical chances of experiencing a negative reaction. Alas, such testing is not available and may never become available.

To those who have had friends or family suffer I have no intention to demean or diminish the pain, loss and suffering you and your loved ones have endured. All such loss for everyone throughout history is suffering that I wish had never occurred. My only hope with this is to illuminate the idea that cause of their injury may not have come from the origin you suspect. Yet I know this does nothing to comfort those who suffer from the damage done.

Regards,

Doug

I agree my only problem is mandating vaccines. I am all for looking at the science and deciding what to do. When the government comes in with the mandate thats were I have a problem and draw the line. Same principle applies to children, let the parents make the decision.

 

[CombatRex]

All my kids have been vacinated, and they are fine. I've been shot up so much by the Army it is ridiculas. Even all 5 of the Anthrax shots. So far no problems, other than an occassional twitch and I blurt out cuss words when I get mad.

 

[88GT]

To All,


However, when parents are making decisions regarding the care and welfare of their children they should make these decisions based upon the best facts and information available and NOT anecdotal stories.

What about religious considerations?

 

[Bunnykid68]

The government forces education requirements on kids, is that tyranny? Or should we let each parent decide if their kid is going to learn math or not?

Tyranny - yes
Parents decide - yes.
If other kids get left behind is not my primary concern. My kids being ahead of the curve is my concern.

Anyone and everyone needs to leave me and mine alone unless we invite you in.