Total abortion ban proposed in Indiana

[hoosierdoc]

I'm missing how that relates to abortion. Surely you aren't reading into that when Obama says he doesn't want his young daughters, due to ignorance about safe sex practices being "punished with a baby," as meaning he wants them to get an abortion?

What other option would there be for his daughter who made "a mistake" if abortion were outlawed?

you tell me what Obama meant then. Who even considers a baby as a punishment? So happy to have him gone.

 

[churchmouse]

What other option would there be for his daughter who made "a mistake" if abortion were outlawed?

you tell me what Obama meant then. Who even considers a baby as a punishment? So happy to have him gone.

I agree that was not the best way he could have said that. So many left thinkers view a baby as punishment in these situations. Heck I know a few conservatives that think this way. Unless the baby is planned on the spread sheet it will be a burden.

Raising a child is serious work. It will be one of the most time consuming and expensive things we do in this life. Parenting is hard.

That said, the unconditional love we receive from a child has no price tag. It is endless in its rewards. There is no other grace beyond that of God matching it. In that they are both on the same plane.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

What other option would there be for his daughter who made "a mistake" if abortion were outlawed?

you tell me what Obama meant then. Who even considers a baby as a punishment? So happy to have him gone.

Doc, long time watcher small time poster. Posting again on a abortion thread?
As i remember the last time you did that you got all butthurt and told another member to F you. And then you went into self imposed exile.

 

[hoosierdoc]

Doc, long time watcher small time poster. Posting again on a abortion thread?
As i remember the last time you did that you got all butthurt and told another member to F you. And then you went into self imposed exile.

Yep. I do recall that. I appreciate the warning. I think I spelled it eff though. It's OK to play with fire if you don't care that your game piece gets burned

 

[ATM]

Yep. I do recall that. I appreciate the warning. I think I spelled it eff though. It's OK to play with fire if you don't care that your game piece gets burned

I like fire.

 

[hoosierdoc]

The claim he's talking about birth control is absurd. When you fight for abortion rights and partial birth abortion then claim a baby is a punishment you don't want your daughter to suffer for a "mistake", it's fair to make the statement I did.

slice it however you want, that's the meat of Obama's policy

perhaps he just meant like a good father's he's sticking his daughters on birth control as soon as they start having periods to protect against the baby punishment. Or he meant he'd use the morning after pill on them (like they'd tell him they had sex), or perhaps he meant abortion.

the first is absurd, the second is unlikely, and he has openly advocated for the third. Hrm.

 

[Bill of Rights]

It seems to me that you're saying you think the discussion of surgeries forced upon people and/or that of depopulation (as opposed to "population control") to be purely academic in the sense that no one is really discussing doing it.

I know I've heard of people being sterilized without their knowledge in this country. I can't say it was a widespread practice, but I have heard of it from multiple sources. Usually, the people so sterilized are mentally handicapped-- after all, who wants them breeding and making more? Just a bit of research has yielded the fact that Indiana was the first state to enact compulsory sterilization legislation, in 1907, so this is not an abstract concept, but has been done, and in some cases, because of such things as "promiscuity" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization)

As to depopulation, it's been discussed in some of the higher corridors of power, by people that some consider wise and good, albeit not so much either of those words being applied here on INGO to figures such as Dr. Henry Kissinger, who said:

Depopulation should be the highest priority of foreign policy towards the third world, because the US economy will require large and increasing amounts of minerals from abroad, especially from less developed countries.

• Attributed by Leuren Moret
• Here's the quote from NSSM 200: "Whatever may be done to guard against interruptions of supply and to develop domestic alternatives, the U.S. economy will require large and increasing amounts of minerals from abroad, especially from less developed countries. That fact gives the U.S. enhanced interest in the political, economic, and social stability of the supplying countries. Wherever a lessening of population pressures through reduced birth rates can increase the prospects for such stability, population policy becomes relevant to resource supplies and to the economic interests of the United States."

(and of course, gems such as

• It is an act of insanity and national humiliation to have a law prohibiting the President from ordering assassination.
  And
• The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.

)
(https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Henry_Kissinger)

You're making good arguments. I'm not telling you you're wrong. What I'm saying is that you're not the only one who's right (not that you claimed you are)
The sticking point with what you're saying is "an innocent human being's life is being terminated." That's the point that is solely opinion, not fact. I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm only saying that we don't know if it is. You may believe it with every fiber of your being, but belief is not the same as fact.

I believe wholeheartedly in God. I see evidence of Him everywhere I look. This was not always the case. There were times I questioned His existence. I don't, now, however, the points I find to be evidentiary, someone who does not believe can explain in other ways. God, and indeed, faith, are matters of belief, not demonstrable, empirical fact.

That fetus has the potential to grow into a human being, yes. It's the only thing in the world that does, indisputably. We don't call an acorn an oak tree, though. We don't call caviar sturgeons, either. Neither do we celebrate someone's "conception day"... we celebrate their birthday. A couple are considered parents-to-be until the child is born. A person is a citizen if they are "born or naturalized" as such in the United States. I can go on, but the point, I think, is clear. You're free to disagree with me or to disregard every point I've made, and that's fine. I'm good with it. For me, the "pro-life" movement is centered around the denial of choice, of freedom, and yes, I see that the reasoning is that you view that fetus or even embryo as the same thing as any of us. The thing that they seem to ignore is that the pro-choice movement allows for the possibility of the woman to choose to carry her pregnancy to term and deliver and either keep her baby or place it for adoption.

And the bottom line of the whole thing is that I was born with male parts and still have them. I'm not the one who should be deciding what people who were born with a uterus should do with it.

Blessings,
Bill

As calmly and rationally as you may be saying all of that Bill all that talk about forced visectomies and population control is more misdirection and predictions of "blood in the streets". What tends to get lost in all of this is an innocent human beings' life is being terminated. Their right to life and liberty are being violently and forcibly destroyed in the most heinous ways possible. Nobody that I know of or whose papers/columns I read have any interest at all in controlling what women do with their bodies and hold that the child is entitled to the same protections as everyone else. One of the legitimate functions of government is protecting life and liberty of the people it governs. If cannot agree when life begins and that the government ought to do its best to protect that, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to foresee a time when we'll allow when one stops being a viable human being after birth. I certainly don't want the government making quality of life decisions anywhere along the way---from conception to natural death. We all should be afforded equal protection under the law.

The TL;DR version: I don't see it as making a decision for anybody but protecting everybody under one of government's legitimate roles.

 

[Kutnupe14]

The claim he's talking about birth control is absurd. When you fight for abortion rights and partial birth abortion then claim a baby is a punishment you don't want your daughter to suffer for a "mistake", it's fair to make the statement I did.

slice it however you want, that's the meat of Obama's policy

perhaps he just meant like a good father's he's sticking his daughters on birth control as soon as they start having periods to protect against the baby punishment. Or he meant he'd use the morning after pill on them (like they'd tell him they had sex), or perhaps he meant abortion.

the first is absurd, the second is unlikely, and he has openly advocated for the third. Hrm.

Yeah, not so much. He says "I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD..." Unless there's some sort of medical procedure where you can abort an STD, I don't really see Obama's statement as "if my daughters get pregnant, I'm going to have an abortion." That's one heck of a leap in logic. Obama was talking about sex education. To a great many people.... BOTH pro-life and pro-choice, the unwanted pregnancy of a teen is indeed a "punishment."

 

[Knife Lady]

If a woman is killed and pregnant they can charge the killer with murder for the unborn baby but yet an abortion is not considered a murder???????????

 

[indiucky]

That said, the unconditional love we receive from a child has no price tag. It is endless in its rewards. There is no other grace beyond that of God matching it. In that they are both on the same plane.

Pretty poetic for an old biker hippie.....As the parent of an autistic child you got me a little choked up there....Very well said brother....

 

[Kutnupe14]

If a woman is killed and pregnant they can charge the killer with murder for the unborn baby but yet an abortion is not considered a murder???????????

If a pregnant woman drinks alcohol, why isn't she charged with providing alcohol to a minor? Same logic.

 

[indiucky]

If a woman is killed and pregnant they can charge the killer with murder for the unborn baby but yet an abortion is not considered a murder???????????

Try explaining to a Conservation Officer that the Bald Eagle eggs you just scrambled up for breakfast are not really Eagles as they had not hatched yet and see how far that defense gets you...Point on young lady...Rep given...

 

[indiucky]

If a pregnant woman drinks alcohol, why isn't she charged with providing alcohol to a minor? Same logic.

Some women are a little heavy built and do you really want to be the police officer to assume a woman is pregnant when she may just be sturdy built????? I NEVER assume any woman is pregnant....(Any more....)

"I have not seen you in forever!!! So when are you due?"

"Due for what?"

"You know.." (While making a big belly sign with your hands..)

"I'm not...."

"Uhhhhh....I gotta go....Good seeing you though...Oh and enjoy that beer!!!!!"

 

[Knife Lady]

If a pregnant woman drinks alcohol, why isn't she charged with providing alcohol to a minor? Same logic.

Really ? I mean do you really compare the 2 and really consider it to be the same logic? A felony over a misdemeanor?

 

[gregr]

Hope it passes. The slaughter of the unborn is the American Holocaust.

 

[churchmouse]

OK. Before we get to deep into the rabbit hole on this hot button topic review what you post please.
No one is over the line yet but this one can go south real fast.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Really ? I mean do you really compare the 2 and really consider it to be the same logic? A felony over a misdemeanor?

It's not illegal for women to drink alcohol while pregnant. Yeah, it's the exact same logic. Let's not try to split hairs here. If we're calling a child a person inside the womb, then the child should be protected in the same ways as if they were outside of it.

 

[Bill of Rights]

A fair question, and where the whole discussion started between GFGT and me. There are, as I see it, two ways to address the discrepancy. The first is to stop charging people with other crimes when you can't make the main charge stick, while the other is to start charging more people with more crimes in an effort to enforce one view of morality on everyone.

I tried, and I can't rephrase that in any way that doesn't reflect my own bias. FWIW, my argument is not with reducing the number of abortions- I'm totally good with that. I stand against increasing the size and power of government.

Blessings,
Bill

If a woman is killed and pregnant they can charge the killer with murder for the unborn baby but yet an abortion is not considered a murder???????????

 

[Knife Lady]

I guess it is not the murder itself but the method of the murder? Same result no matter the method. As long as it is a doctor who does the killing with his method it is legal. I will never understand this.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I guess it is not the murder itself but the method of the murder? Same result no matter the method. As long as it is a doctor who does the killing with his method it is legal. I will never understand this.

In different areas, we see this same pattern played out regularly:

As long as it is an approved vehicle speeding, it's legal
As long as it is an approved person kicking in a door, it is legal
As long as it is an approved person providing drugs, it is legal
As long as it is an approved group stealing from you (i.e. taxes), it is legal
so why not "as long as it is an approved person killing, it is legal"? Bad cops have done it for decades. (note that this is NOT an attack on police in general, only on the bad ones)

Women who do not want to be pregnant are GOING to make efforts to abort their pregnancies. This is not just me surmising it, it is a pattern we've seen for perhaps as long as mankind has been able to recognize a pregnancy and connect it logically to what happens before a birth, and then to not desire a baby.
I'm not going to go research all of the tools that have been used over the past hundreds or thousands of years to accomplish that end.

(from here on, the word "you" is used collectively, not addressed specifically to KL)

To me, it seems that if you or anyone wants to stop abortion, you can pass this law or you can pass a million laws and you will accomplish only securing a million methods or degrees of punishing people who have done what they wanted to do with which you disagree,

OR

You can start educating people to take responsibility for their actions (male AND female, and both before the sex and a couple weeks after), you can work on providing for research into better contraception, you can work on "safety nets" such as the legislation that made fire stations and hospitals safe places for a woman to drop off a baby that she can't care for, without penalty. Use the carrot, not the stick, in other words.

Anything else is just seeking revenge for her doing something you find repugnant.

Blessings,
Bill