Tragic

[JAL]

Very new to this forum, and yet I knew when I saw this thread had mushroomed to 10 pages in 3 days, that most of it had devolved into yet another dust-up about Cooper's 4 rules and the NRA's 3 rules. Whatever I might have to say would only get tangled up in it.

I'll leave it at this:
There's so much wrong with this tragic and so very clearly and easily avoidable death that it boggles my mind.

John

 

[lonehoosier]

Hobart man posts bond after daughter's shooting death
Hobart man posts bond after daughter's shooting death | Crime and Courts | nwitimes.com

"Bail was set at $70,000, of which 10 percent cash must be posted per Lake County's jail system. Hummel posted a $6,945 bond. An initial hearing for Hummel is set for June 28 in Lake County Superior Court with Judge Clarence Murray"

 

[churchmouse]

Very new to this forum, and yet I knew when I saw this thread had mushroomed to 10 pages in 3 days, that most of it had devolved into yet another dust-up about Cooper's 4 rules and the NRA's 3 rules. Whatever I might have to say would only get tangled up in it.

I'll leave it at this:
There's so much wrong with this tragic and so very clearly and easily avoidable death that it boggles my mind.

John

+ 10 new guy. Well said.

Rules need to be in place for obvious reasons. Which ever list you adhere to is your own business. Just make damn sure you follow them.

The part about never ever point your gun at something you do not intend to shoot comes to mind here. Then to actually pull the trigger........Mindless, idiotic and tragic beyond words.

I would ask that we get past the rules discussion as it seems to go nowhere. This entire tragedy is the result of an idiot owning and misusing a gun. Regardless of what we see as the rules. He followed none of them.
People are starting to look and talk about this thread. That is why I am posting in it at 4:27 A.M.
Any further dust ups will be dealt with. Period.

Thank you and good morning.

 

[ATM]

Where is the dust up?

This has already been demonstrated and finished. My simple position continues to survive all scrutiny thrown at it.

There is no positive reason to point a gun in an unsafe direction, only negative reasons. Negative reasons are not reasons at all. Answers to negative reasons are not answers at all.

Where is the sense in substituting "as if they were loaded" for the word "safely"? It cannot be shown.

That some still try as an exercise is admirable, all claimed truths should be scrutinized, but just clinging to nonsense after it has been exposed as such is not reasonable.

What is the basis of offense here? Truth or reason?

 

[foszoe]

All guns are always loaded is a lie, a false statement that is attempting to develop a mindset.

Treat all guns as if they are loaded, is a behavioral statement that achieves a desired result.

Always point a gun in a safe direction is a behavioral statement that achieves a desired result.

I fail to see the superiority of either of the last two.

 

[ATM]

Where is the sense in substituting "as if they were loaded" for the word "safely"? It cannot be shown.

Shall we teach safe gun handling, or as if they were loaded gun handling?

Always point a gun in a safe direction is safe gun handling.

 

[foszoe]

Shall we teach safe gun handling, or as if they were loaded gun handling?

Always point a gun in a safe direction is safe gun handling.

Explain to me the behavioral change induced by one statement over the other. Without that understanding, I will continue to see that both statements produce the same result.

Treating and pointing are actions.

 

[ATM]

Explain to me the behavioral change induced by one statement over the other. Without that understanding, I will continue to see that both statements produce the same result.

Treating and pointing are actions.

What else could we substitute for "safe" that would be better than "as if they were loaded"?

How about "proper"?

3 steps of proper gun handling.

I could still ask them why they chose to handle a gun improperly and the excuse "because I was sure it was unloaded" still wouldn't work - not because of any "rule", but because it would not be reasonable.

Do you worship because it is proper ...or simply follow rules of worship when others are looking "as if it was proper"?

 

[ATM]

If you figure this out, you may just figure it all out.

 

[bwframe]

[video=youtube;cKfwVgVGl4s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKfwVgVGl4s[/video]

 

[ATM]

Some choose not to advance, they limit themselves to ignoring and regurgitating.

The gap widens.

 

[Lelliott8]

Discussing how we teach people to be safe is entirely relevant to this story. He handled the gun unsafely and killed his child. How can we shut down a discussion about what went wrong and what can be done to improve?

 

[Mark 1911]

I can't imagine the family's grief. I do feel sorry for the dad, a terrible price to pay for an incredibly stupid act. He will have the rest of his life to think about it, what a heavy burden to carry.

 

[churchmouse]

Discussing how we teach people to be safe is entirely relevant to this story. He handled the gun unsafely and killed his child. How can we shut down a discussion about what went wrong and what can be done to improve?

Lets review. My intent is that the conversation remains on point and civil. Dust ups are as we (staff) see them and not the members.
Just keep it civil. No one is shutting this down or it would have been by 5:00 AM.
This is a very emotional topic for all of us.

Carry on.

 

[foszoe]

The goal is an end result behavioral change. Is one statement more conducive?

The ALWAYS statement when it comes to human beings is ALWAYS false because we rarely, if ever, ALWAYS do something. NEVER falls into the same category when discussing human behavior.

In the realm of gun safety rules I think this holds true, or we wouldn't have 3 or 4 rule discussions. We have 3 or 4 rules because we know none of us are able to ALWAYS follow any one rule, even if the failure is through no fault of our own. The hope is that if we are not breaking the rest of the rules, everybody goes home.

So how does that relate to worship? I am not sure if you are applying that to corporate or personal worship, so while I will take it down the personal side, it can be applied to corporate worship.

Well worship is no different in any other things Christians are called to do.

Do we ALWAYS do them? When reading the Bible, prayerfully, worshipfully, one thing the Christian must do is recognize oneself in ALL the characters because we play the role of everyone.

Matthew 21

28“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ 29“And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. 30“The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go. 31“Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you. 32“For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.

In my life, I am both of them and when it comes to worship, I am no different. However, I do hope and pray that not matter how often we break the rules, that the Lord through His mercy, allows all of us to go Home.

There is still value in following the rules EVEN if I am only doing it when others are looking whether it be gun safety or worship.

Outward acts can change the inner disposition.

What else could we substitute for "safe" that would be better than "as if they were loaded"?

How about "proper"?

3 steps of proper gun handling.

I could still ask them why they chose to handle a gun improperly and the excuse "because I was sure it was unloaded" still wouldn't work - not because of any "rule", but because it would not be reasonable.

Do you worship because it is proper ...or simply follow rules of worship when others are looking "as if it was proper"?

 

[ATM]

...Outward acts can change the inner disposition.

I am not called to equip actors to more successfully act, I am called to make failures more successful.

 

[foszoe]

Parents equip actors to successfully act in the hopes in later life they will be successful from the desires of their own heart. Matthew, the first gospel, not by random choice, is a Gospel of listen and do. Doing can bring about a change of heart.

What is a failure?

I am not called to equip actors to more successfully act, I am called to make failures more successful.

 

[mbills2223]

While ATM has some unique thoughts, I wonder if we might for a moment consider bowling shoes

 

[lonehoosier]

Attorney: Hobart father plans not guilty plea in daughter's death
Attorney: Hobart father plans not guilty plea in daughter's death | Crime and Courts | nwitimes.com

 

[ATM]

...Doing can bring about a change of heart.

Or, it may satisfy you with just becoming a more excellent actor and teaching others to act.

What is a failure?

One who considers equipping actors to more successfully act to be their loftiest goal.

A failure embraces the rules more than and rather than the underlying fundamental truth begging to be discovered and shared.