Training Question

[jakemartens]

I have heard time and again that the reason many people do not go and try or shoot competitions is that anything that is done there will get you killed in real life, or over in the sand box, or the suck, or combat zone, or the real streets....
I especially have heard this from several former military people on this board, I have posted this question asking then

What about this?

The benefit for the US Army and for the Army Marksmanship Unit is to see the performance of the latest civilian-developed firearms enhancements that will be used to claim the division championships. As the leading unit developing cutting edge small arms, the USAMU considers the concept of Competition to Combat to be the best test of new ideas and new tactics.

SHOW 30-12

And got no answer from any of those same people that say it will get you killed. Now I have my own opinion as to why they won't come out and "play the gun games" (another reference I have heard to competition shooting)

Now this is not just directed at those military members, it is also directed at those tactical guys that go to all the training classes, but also refuses to put skills to test on the competition range.

Just wondering if it is good enough for the military why is not good enough for you?

 

[Glock21]

I'm not sure "if it's good enough for the military why is it not good enough for you?" is a valid question.

Personally, military housing, food and heathcare are not things I desire. Neither are their choice of rifle or pistol.

However, my issue with gaming has never really been about hitting targets, it's always been about cold ranges, rules and timers. Having not seen what the exact course of fire is like in what you're refering to, I can't really say one way or the other if it's "Good enough."

In general, I don't train to see how "fast" I can enter a room and clear it. I clear rooms as they need to be cleared at the pace they need to be cleared at. As soon as you say "go" and turn it into a competition, then people start to do things they would never do in reality.

I also never holster an unloaded gun - and that is standard practice on a cold range. I don't extend past cover. I don't do lots of things that are required of people to win matches. And because of that, I've never won one...and I doubt I ever will.

Now, are there things that can be learned by shooting in them, or observing them - sure. My problem is that I can't serve two masters. I can't do one thing during the match and another in the driveway that night. I admit that in that way, I'm DUMB, so I only train in the way I fight. And every now and then I shoot a match...and when I do, I get marked down for all kinds of things I do "wrong." So be it.

As long as we're all being honest about what it is were doing, then no problem. But if we're going to set a clock and say everyone must work inside of these set rules, and the one who does it faster is now ready for a gunfight...well, that probably isn't reality. But again, I haven't seen exactly what the Army is doing here, so maybe they are on to something.

 

[ray d]

After action drills , use of flashlight,day and night tactics ect.No rules in gun fight.Games are fun but will get you killed!

 

[figley]

Don't get too caught up in absolutes. There are certainly techniques or equipment that the gamers develop, that can have a positive impact on a defensive shooting regimen. The danger comes when a shooters instincts, and the habits to which he reverts under stress, become ones adapted to competition, rather than a defensive situation.

The greatest danger I was taught, was the notion of "scoring hits", in competition, then moving on to the next target. i.e.- one shot, steel rings out, and the target drops. IRL, a "target", will likely keep coming, yet the shooter has relaxed after one hit, and is expecting that immediate auditory feedback. Defensive training, on the other hand, teaches to shoot the "target", "into the ground", regardless of how many rounds are required. In a game, that is difficult to construct, as is the reality of return fire, and other situational-awareness issues.

This isn't related to gaming, but is an illustration of the effects of training:

A police officer had done extensive training on the technique of disarming an attacker, using empty hands. During training drills, the "attacker" would present, the student would dis-arm him, hand the blue-gun back, and they would repeat the drill, over and over. Eventually, the student became very good at dis-arms. He eventually ran into a situation in which this training was used. He quickly and efficiently dis-armed the BG. Much to the BG's surprise, the officer immediately turned around, and handed his gun back to him.

I don't know the eventual outcome, but this was relayed as a true example of how a person reverts to his training. In the class I was taking, as you would expect, we did not practice handing the blue-gun right back to our training partners.

 

[SSGSAD]

I have a couple of opinions, on this ... I heard of a story, many years ago where a man was "attacked" and he raised his hands, to the hands up position like they do in some compettions... He was shot and killed by his "attacker"... The Military "trains" I was Supply & Motor "T"... we went to the range, and shot, and qualified ..... INFANTRY, "TRAINS" with weapons .... MY experience .... BOTH AD USMC, and INARNG ... so go get trained, but DON"T outsmart your "common sense" ..... The Army says, Train to fight, and fight to Train .... in other words, get training, then practice training ..... what you learned .... then depending on how smart you are, adapt the training, so that it works for you ....
Ex. some people shoot with the tip of their finger, some like me, use a "full wrap" my own word... I put adjustable sights on ALL my handguns, because when I draw, I put my whole tip, in to the first joint, and pull the trigger... just how I have done it for too many years... it is now "habit" or muscle memory... I do not want to "re train" myself to do it another way ... right or wrong, it works for me ... THAT is what counts ....

 

[NIFT]

A police officer had done extensive training on the technique of disarming an attacker, using empty hands. During training drills, the "attacker" would present, the student would dis-arm him, hand the blue-gun back, and they would repeat the drill, over and over. Eventually, the student became very good at dis-arms. He eventually ran into a situation in which this training was used. He quickly and efficiently dis-armed the BG. Much to the BG's surprise, the officer immediately turned around, and handed his gun back to him.

I hope this is "urban legend" and not a true story, as is sure evoked a hearty laugh!

One will default to his level of training/practice. If there is no practice, then the default is to nothing. So, competitive shooting is a good thing, as it requires exhibiting skills under some pressure, as opposed to practicing on a range with no real pressure, which beats not shooting at all. Although I believe shooting competition is, generally, a good thing, there are some aspects that concern me:

• Standing still. Most shooting is done two-handed from a stationary platform.
• Unrealistic distances. Rarely is shooting done inside 5 yards, much less from 10 feet on in.
• Two shots. Usually, two shots for every target, except steel (one shot)
• Quiet. No vocalizing commands, i.e., no yelling and screaming!
• Additional threats. Shooters are not required to "check sixes." Some shooters do so, but it is not required.

The above concerns are not absolute, i.e., some matches require moving & shooting, close range, multiple shots, etc., but such are unusual.

Again, I am all for competitive shooting; it just has some aspects that might not be good defaults. Sure beats not shooting!

 

[cedartop]

Jake, I am not against "gun games", if I was, I wouldn't be signed up for comp 101 with Coach. I do however think that Frank gave a very good response to your question. A question for you, have you taken any "tactical" firearms classes, and what did you think of them? As a side note, you are confident in your abilities, so why does it bother you so much that there are all of the competition haters?

 

[ray d]

Jake I also do not hate games some of what you guys do is good.Lets meet at a range you show me what you do and I will show you what I teach. We will both learn something. Ray Duensing Instructor Front Sight

 

[CombatRex]

How you train that is how you will fight. Just know, things become drastically different when you hear that AK round crack past your ear. The pucker fact escalates 100 fold, and if you stand there like you are trying to shoot steel targets.....you are now nothing but a target yourself. You had better hope the bad guys are aiming center of mass, cause with the next round, your SAPI plate will be the only thing saving you.

Just my two cents based on experience.

 

[jakemartens]

I have not taken any tactics training classes.

I do feel that if a person is going to carry a firearm daily that they should take classes, new gun owners should take classes. LEO and military members should take classes.
They need to research and find the classes that will best suit their needs. There is a lot of very important and vaulable lesson and instruction that can be found and benefit anyone interested in firearms.

I have never been in the military either.

I grew up around family and their friends that were very active in shooting, especially my uncle and my father and learned not only basic firearm handling and safety from them, but beyond that into markmanship, not just in handguns but also rifle, shotgun. Maintenance, reloading and other related knowledge. Unlce was very involved in NRA, NRA instuctor etc, winning several President Distinguished Medals in high power rifle and pistol competitions.

To answer a few things about competition
-no, no one is shooting back
-no, you do not shoot a target into the ground
-yes, there are rules, and range rules that must be followed
-yes, there are cold ranges
-yes you get to see what the course of fire is, not surpised stages

So let me ask-
-any training out there that targets are shooting back, outside of simmunition, I mean live ammo?
-in training classes if you are shooting targets how do you shoot them into the ground? Do you consider shooting more than 2 rounds the only way to do that? Are you using reaction targets that fall after only so many hits? Or is it paper and the instructor yells out how many rounds?
-Are there training classes out there that do not follow the basic 4 rules of firearms? I do not mind people staying loaded at all, as a matter fact most IDPA major matches follow this, although I have not shot much IDPA matches over the last couple of years
-I know that there are places out there that can do 360degree training, not sure of any around here that can, but if you can't do it, do you still consider your training to be real life?

My question is not about what training you get from competition shooting, my question is if the military sees a benefit in things done in competition, if many of the skills are transferable over to other tactics, if some of the most sought after military and LEO trainers are from the competition world, why wouldn't you try it and take what you can from it?

Also the whole "can't serve two masters", handing guns back, I don't go fast, no use of cover, no voice commands etc, is really a concern at least to me.
Not being able to distinguished between some really basic things and understand that it is about quality trigger time, moving and shooting, multiple target engagements is in my opinion a cop out.
As long are you are safe, have a safe firearm, able to follow the range commands USPSA is freestyle, here is the problem you solve it.
If you are not there to "win" under the competition part then shoot it for the trigger time, shoot it tactical, put a light on your gun, wear your duty gear, wear cover, use cover, shut commands, put multiple rounds on target etc.

And here in lies the issue I have with the competition haters, the people that will not try it for what it is, or use it as another tool along with their tactical training, people that have no experience in it and not willing to try it, people that spout out everything that is wrong with competition compared to real world, but have never been or willing to even give it a try.

But what I think, and this is just my opinion, the reason that some trainers, some LEO, some Military or military tactical types don't come out is because they don't want to show up on the bottom of the score card, their ego cannot handle it. They don't want to put themselves in a position to "be judged" or "look bad".

And to answer your question about why have I not taken any classes, time and money are the biggest 2 reason, value is the other. I have a limited budget that I spend on shooting competitions. I am a Retail Store Manager of a Big Box store, weekends are tight with work, family and other obligations along with trying to make it matches. I don't even spend time doing very much training for competitions. Value, when considering cost and time there are alot of things that I do not see a value in learning. I have researched alot of training classes that I have thought about taking but when weighing it out in time and money, going to the competition matches wins out for me, at least right now it does.

 

[jakemartens]

Jake I also do not hate games some of what you guys do is good.Lets meet at a range you show me what you do and I will show you what I teach. We will both learn something. Ray Duensing Instructor Front Sight

Yes, this is a great idea I really want to do this.

if you do a youtube search on my name (I don't like screen names) you will come up with alot of the last couple years matches

Jake Martens Videos

 

[CombatRex]

"So let me ask-
-any training out there that targets are shooting back, outside of simmunition, I mean live ammo?"
I have never heard of any...you can try Afghanistan, but then it's no longer training.

I am not a competition hater, fact I loved watching 3 gun the one time I was able to. I don't compete because frankly I don't have the time or the money to devote to it. I would like to, and I would probably end up on the bottom of the score sheet, but so much of that is down to just practice...which I have no time.

 

[jakemartens]

"So let me ask-
-any training out there that targets are shooting back, outside of simmunition, I mean live ammo?"
I have never heard of any...you can try Afghanistan, but then it's no longer training.

I am not a competition hater, fact I loved watching 3 gun the one time I was able to. I don't compete because frankly I don't have the time or the money to devote to it. I would like to, and I would probably end up on the bottom of the score sheet, but so much of that is down to just practice...which I have no time.

I too would like to shoot 3 gun matches, but again it comes down to time and money.
3 gun to get started is somewhat expensive, even if you have an AR, and Shotgun. All the other gear that is needed to go along with it, plus now you are shooting 2 more guns.
Couple of years ago I shot several 3 guns matches, bought an AR for it, but there were not alot of clubs running it. And again it came down to time and money and for me the pistol competition was were I found the most fun and challenge.

 

[esrice]

I have not taken any tactics training classes.

Jake would you be interested in joining me for a force-on-force class sometime later this year? If it was a one-day event and I could help offset the tuition costs would you be more inclined to try it?

Something like this: Intro to Force on Force | Mindset Laboratory

After I try my first USPSA match we could both write reviews of our experiences and roll them into one report.

 

[jakemartens]

Jake would you be interested in joining me for a force-on-force class sometime later this year? If it was a one-day event and I could help offset the tuition costs would you be more inclined to try it?

Something like this: Intro to Force on Force | Mindset Laboratory

After I try my first USPSA match we could both write reviews of our experiences and roll them into one report.

Yes, that would be very interesting.

 

[bwframe]

I'm one of those weirdos that actually do competition and "tactical" training. There are actually a lot more of us than you might think. I think those who choose to believe that there are two separate sides to this issue are wrong. Individuals own pride and bravado in their own choices being the only choices are the issue.

I can't decide whether I'm waiting to die from my "bad" habits or waiting for the buzzer to take out a BG? I guess we'll know if the cops on the scene DQ me for breaking the 180, when they find me picking up my brass, huh? It likely won't matter much, cause my gun will be "cold" just like at the matches. If only I'd practiced reloading a bit more, hmm...

 

[kevinsr98]

I'm one of those weirdos that actually do competition and "tactical" training. There are actually a lot more of us than you might think. I think those who choose to believe that there are two separate sides to this issue are wrong. Individuals own pride and bravado in their own choices being the only choices are the issue.

I can't decide whether I'm waiting to die from my "bad" habits or waiting for the buzzer to take out a BG? I guess we'll know if the cops on the scene DQ me for breaking the 180, when they find me picking up my brass, huh? It likely won't matter much, cause my gun will be "cold" just like at the matches. If only I'd practiced reloading a bit more, hmm...

bwframe, I also do several tactical and defensive training courses. I then was invited to a USPSA match two years ago. WOW! I thought I was good with a handgun. I was not.

I decided to try out USPSA to improve my draw, target acquisition time and shooting on the move.

The last tactical course I took, after running several drills the instructor commented fast and accurate I was on the handgun parts of the drills. (not so much with my carbine)

I am only a C class shooter in USPSA. I get my but kicked every match.

Bottom line, competition will make you a better shooter. I have improved a lot from two years ago. No, it is not "real life". Nothing is "real life" except real life.

And the thought that I won't take cover in a real life situation, or I would drop my magazine and show clear because of competition shooting I think is ludicrous.

 

[samrothstein01]

bwframe and kevinsr98 make good points. I too also participate in tactical training as well as competitive shooting events and applications. It is simply about the mindset and what you choose to get out of it.

They CAN be supplemental, as long as you understand your overall goals and ensure what you are doing contributes to that overall goal. The individual is the only one that can determine what they want to get out of a particular event/session/practice, and it is up to them to make sure that is what they get.

Competitive shooting can supplement defensive tactics with additional range time, marksmanship, draw strokes, mag changes, etc. It also provides a different environment, which I feel is important. Changing your environment keeps from getting stale, and you never know the environment you will be in if your defensive tactics have to come into play. You just need to make sure there is consistency across the boundaries in your mindset, your goals, and your actions (where applicable).

 

[Chaz]

Great thread, great ideas. Love it!
I too, shoot both. And for all the reasons stated above. It just makes sense to do both.... again, for all the reasons stated above. (I don't care to re-type them all)
In my situation, competition shooting is really only competition with myself and getting better at the skills and muscle memory in an, at least, "somewhat" stressfull enviorment. Bullseye, on the other hand, is more for "fun" for me when I shoot it. Not in the same league as IDPA, USPSA, etc. And I never win. I don't care. I just like to shoot.
That said, there ARE a couple things I have found that is not acceptable to do in a "competition" that "training" tells us is the best way to do it. For such things - as well as in ALL situations - your brain is your best weapon. Use it and discern. If some knuclehead gets into a gun fight and plays by the rules set down on a competition field, well...... just go back to your video games. You're just going to get taken out in the first scene.
I love the idea of shooting all sorts of scenerios because you can never predict the situation you may be in. But as stated, ego's, whether people want to admit it or not, can/is a big reason for some not to shoot competition. But then again, if you just don't want to... you just don't want to. No problem. But, I too, recommend that you do.

Someone mentioned "shooting back". Have any of you contemplated paintball?? Or is that somehow taboo here. I played a lot when I was a little younger and I think it's as close to "real life" as you can get, if you play it that way. If you are worried about you having the mindset that "it's just a game" and that's how you play it, good for you. But, if you use your brain and consider it real, I think it can be used as good training.
But that's just my .

 

[ray d]

I dont use paintball but I do use airsoft getting shot is always an eye opener.