Training Question

[jakemartens]

Jake I also do not hate games some of what you guys do is good.Lets meet at a range you show me what you do and I will show you what I teach. We will both learn something. Ray Duensing Instructor Front Sight

Ray,

sent you a PM back about this, just wanted to see if you still wanted to do this since I have not heard back. Like I said in the PM, should be good to go next month after I get over this foot surgery thing I had. Let me know

 

[jakemartens]

I am out of the boot now, been two weeks, back to work full time, haven't shot a match yet. My first match since November 20th will be the Riley match next Sunday.
17 weeks without firing a round.....I might be a bit rusty?!?!?

But once I get back into the swing of things I would still like to take Ray and Evan up on their offers.
Riley match would be a good warm up for all of us, you guys want to come, my guest I will cover the entry fee.

 

[Jackson]

I know the majority of this thread is a few weeks old, but I wanted to throw my 2 cents in anyway. I've shot in a couple USPSA competitions and I've also taken several tacticool/self-defense pistol and rifle courses.

It seems to me that what you get out if it is directly related to what you put in to it and how you approach the competition. I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone worth talking to who would say that improving marksmanship, gun handling, target transition times, and ability to shoot on the move is going to hurt you in a real life situation. Competition can certainly be a tool for improvement in those areas.

However, I also believe that much of what is said by the "gamer haters" you're referring to is true to some degree. I don't think it is all because of the competition, though. It has to do with the approach of the individuals. You could "game up" any legitimate self-defense drill to the point where it would lose all value. You can also approach most any USPSA stage set-up with the goal of bettering your self-defense skill set and use it to that end.

It's the people who compete with their special gun and their special holster mounted on their special belt then later, while wearing their carry gun, in their carry holster say things like "Well, I can't draw from this holster" or "Well, this gun isn't for shooting fast" and things like that. I also believe practicing some of the specifics mentioned above during competition (projecting your gun/hand beyond cover, running through the stage at full speed to a known target and moving on quickly without looking for other threats, use of a cold range, etc) are not the best way to train for a self-defense situation. If it is approached with the mindest that it is a game, and winning the game is what matters, that is what you will get out of it. But that is not the only way to approach it.

When I have been to matches, I wear my regular carry gear, I use the gun I carry, and I shoot the match without much regard to winning. I don't draw my gun 5 times and point in at every target before I'm ready, or walk through the stage and figure out my re-loads. It was plenty good practice using my gun at speed on multiple targets where I didn't set up the drill. It wasn't perfect. But no drill is.

The main reason why I am not interested in pursuing competition in a serious way is that the approach and attitude of most competitors is substantially different from mine. At the last competition I went to I was doing little things to try to keep my mindset in the right place and focus on what I wanted to improve. I was pausing at cover, I was performing "threat scans" after stages, I was racking the slide with every relaod (ocassionally ejecting a live cartridge), and I was pretending to re-load my gun at the end of the stage. The range officer with our group took notice and asked me not to do these things because they were slowing down the pace of his competition. That's fine, I suppose. It is, afterall, his competition. But it just illustrated my feeling that my focus and my goals were not the same as most everyone elses there.

I would rather spend what little practice time I have and what little ammo money I can muster on a range with like minded folks, running drills that focus on these things I think are important and not holding up anyone elses competition.

Will I still go to the occasional competition to run new and different stages, try new things and challenge myself? Sure I will. But in my view the people are coming at shooting from a whole different angle. And their approach does not always jive with mine. I think there are others like me who see plenty of value in competition, have tried it, but feel it is not the best use of our time just as you have decided that tacticool classes are not the best use of yours.

 

[jakemartens]

When I shoot single stack division it is with a STI Trojan .45acp, bought used, had the trigger, hammer, sear swapped out and set at 3 1/2 pounds and added a Smith & Alexander magwell and ambi safeties. I use a standard Bladetech holster.

Only thing different from when I carry this same gun and shoot in competition is the ammo, I load 200 lswc for competition, for carry it is 200gr hollow points. I also use an Alessi CQB-S holster and single mag pouch.

I would carry my Brazo's or Anglin built Limited guns if I had a good holster for them, I would take the magwell off.

 

[HICKMAN]

Jackson, there are many folks that USPSA matches in the same manner, we see it quite a bit in Production, Single Stack and Limited 10.

Shot with an LEO last season who used his M&P9c for matches.

 

[bwframe]

The main reason why I am not interested in pursuing competition in a serious way is that the approach and attitude of most competitors is substantially different from mine. At the last competition I went to I was doing little things to try to keep my mindset in the right place and focus on what I wanted to improve. I was pausing at cover, I was performing "threat scans" after stages, I was racking the slide with every relaod (ocassionally ejecting a live cartridge), and I was pretending to re-load my gun at the end of the stage. The range officer with our group took notice and asked me not to do these things because they were slowing down the pace of his competition. That's fine, I suppose. It is, afterall, his competition. But it just illustrated my feeling that my focus and my goals were not the same as most everyone elses there.

Don't give up on us yet. This will not be your experience every time. The more you shoot with us the more you will become familiar with those who will not be annoyed by how you want to shoot YOUR match. Do not be concerned about making us aware of your intentions up front.

 

[riverman67]

The main reason why I am not interested in pursuing competition in a serious way is that the approach and attitude of most competitors is substantially different from mine. At the last competition I went to I was doing little things to try to keep my mindset in the right place and focus on what I wanted to improve. I was pausing at cover, I was performing "threat scans" after stages, I was racking the slide with every relaod (ocassionally ejecting a live cartridge), and I was pretending to re-load my gun at the end of the stage. The range officer with our group took notice and asked me not to do these things because they were slowing down the pace of his competition. That's fine, I suppose. It is, afterall, his competition. But it just illustrated my feeling that my focus and my goals were not the same as most everyone elses there.

I would rather spend what little practice time I have and what little ammo money I can muster on a range with like minded folks, running drills that focus on these things I think are important and not holding up anyone elses competition.

Will I still go to the occasional competition to run new and different stages, try new things and challenge myself? Sure I will. But in my view the people are coming at shooting from a whole different angle. And their approach does not always jive with mine. I think there are others like me who see plenty of value in competition, have tried it, but feel it is not the best use of our time just as you have decided that tacticool classes are not the best use of yours.[/QUOTE]


This will not happen if I am your RO,freestyle is freestyle and you can shoot the stage anyway you like as long as it's within the rules.
There are a lot more people that do this than you think.

 

[3gunshooter]

I know you can do both no matter what people say. It's your mindset going into it, don't go to win. Competition is great for shooting on the move and trying new things in a hurry such as weak hand shooting around objects. You just have to remember its for fun and you are using things you have learned and shoot what you carry.

 

[Jackson]

I didn't intend for my post to come off as a complaint about that specific experience of mine. I was just using it to demonstrate the difference in focus and approach between competition oriented shooters and shooters who's main focus is defense. I agree that competition offers a great place to advance and test your skill with a gun. But there are other ways too. And some of those other places align themselves a little better with my methods and way of thinking.

I am sure Ill participate in more competitions. I have been wanting to experience IDPA and could see 3 gun in my future. But I will probably never get in to it in a serious way. And some of the differences in focus and approach are part of the reason.

 

[HICKMAN]

sling lead and have some fun. Get out of it what you want, that's the important thing.

If we were in that big a hurry, we'd get rid of them revolver guys!

 

[rhino]

The main reason why I am not interested in pursuing competition in a serious way is that the approach and attitude of most competitors is substantially different from mine. At the last competition I went to I was doing little things to try to keep my mindset in the right place and focus on what I wanted to improve. I was pausing at cover, I was performing "threat scans" after stages, I was racking the slide with every relaod (ocassionally ejecting a live cartridge), and I was pretending to re-load my gun at the end of the stage. The range officer with our group took notice and asked me not to do these things because they were slowing down the pace of his competition. That's fine, I suppose. It is, afterall, his competition. But it just illustrated my feeling that my focus and my goals were not the same as most everyone elses there.

We've discussed this in the past and I'm still upset by it. I apologize again on behalf of the rest of us. In my opinion, that guy was significantly out of line. You were not violating any rules and the competition is FREESTYLE. It doesn't matter that your style did not match his personal preconceived notion of what was appropriate.

Next time get on my squad (or riverman67's) and it won't happen. In fact, I'd enjoy shooting with you because I do some of the same things (although I don't rack the slide on all of my reloads).

 

[Jackson]

We've discussed this in the past and I'm still upset by it. I apologize again on behalf of the rest of us. In my opinion, that guy was significantly out of line. You were not violating any rules and the competition is FREESTYLE. It doesn't matter that your style did not match his personal preconceived notion of what was appropriate.

Next time get on my squad (or riverman67's) and it won't happen. In fact, I'd enjoy shooting with you because I do some of the same things (although I don't rack the slide on all of my reloads).

It has been discussed before. I really didn't bring it up to complain about that incident. I do appreciate the sympathy. And I will be much more likely to come to competitions if I can run the courses with people known to me.

I really just brought it up as an extreme example of the different approaches toward shooting found among competitors vs people who attend a lot of training classes. (Yes I understand there is a lot of cross-over between those two populations) If I go to a competition without the intention (or strategy) to win, then it is not a lot different than setting up drills on my home range and working them with like-minded friends.

I do like that I don't have to set up the targets, there's someone to follow me around with the timer, and they track my performance. :-) And it does add a bit of stress.

 

[rhino]

I think it needed to be said again if we want to avoid this happening again to you or anyone else.

It has been discussed before. I really didn't bring it up to complain about that incident. I do appreciate the sympathy. And I will be much more likely to come to competitions if I can run the courses with people known to me.

I really just brought it up as an extreme example of the different approaches toward shooting found among competitors vs people who attend a lot of training classes. (Yes I understand there is a lot of cross-over between those two populations) If I go to a competition without the intention (or strategy) to win, then it is not a lot different than setting up drills on my home range and working them with like-minded friends.

I do like that I don't have to set up the targets, there's someone to follow me around with the timer, and they track my performance. :-) And it does add a bit of stress.

 

[Coach]

Match this Sunday. I have this on my mind and I want avoid a repeat performance as well.

 

[jakemartens]

If have now shot 2 club matches (well 2 1/2, rained out at one) and a Level II Major, it is already into April and I still haven't had anyone get back to me on their offers of going to classes or coming to a match.

This coming Sunday at Riley will be the Wabash Valley USPSA Match I am going to be shooting single stack division (1911, 8 round mags, 45acp no race guns, using a bladetech kydex holster, no race gear)
You can squad up on my squad, shoot the stage however you want, or just come out and watch.

Ray,

sent you a PM back about this, just wanted to see if you still wanted to do this since I have not heard back. Like I said in the PM, should be good to go next month after I get over this foot surgery thing I had. Let me know

I am out of the boot now, been two weeks, back to work full time, haven't shot a match yet. My first match since November 20th will be the Riley match next Sunday.
17 weeks without firing a round.....I might be a bit rusty?!?!?

But once I get back into the swing of things I would still like to take Ray and Evan up on their offers.
Riley match would be a good warm up for all of us, you guys want to come, my guest I will cover the entry fee.

 

[Coach]

If have now shot 2 club matches (well 2 1/2, rained out at one) and a Level II Major, it is already into April and I still haven't had anyone get back to me on their offers of going to classes or coming to a match.

This coming Sunday at Riley will be the Wabash Valley USPSA Match I am going to be shooting single stack division (1911, 8 round mags, 45acp no race guns, using a bladetech kydex holster, no race gear)
You can squad up on my squad, shoot the stage however you want, or just come out and watch.

Are you saying it is quiet?

 

[jakemartens]

Are you saying it is quiet?

Yes, not a peep

This is not some kind of challenge, I do not proclaim to know anything about tactical, practical, or the ninja arts of shooting. I like guns, I like shooting, I like competing
I like sharing this experience.

 

[SERVED_USMC]

I shoot competition exclusively as of right now, but really, REALLY, want to take a tac/defense class.

I dont hate on one group or another. If I were to go shoot with someone who has taken dozens of classes, I know they could teach me something. Just the same as Im sure I could teach them a lot.

To me, accuracy is paramount. All the training on the planet will not get you to hit the target consistently. Shooting matches every weekend has given me confidence in my accuracy for real world scenarios.

I cant bring myself to agree with the comments that almost lead one to believe that comp shooters would not be able to use their skill set in "real life". I assure you, if a BG is shooting at me, I will not wait for a buzzer or someone to give me a "make ready" command before I start to defend myself.

I like the fact that training classes are an option for a regular Joe. I need to drag my ass to one sometime this year.

 

[3gunshooter]

I shoot competition exclusively as of right now, but really, REALLY, want to take a tac/defense class.

I dont hate on one group or another. If I were to go shoot with someone who has taken dozens of classes, I know they could teach me something. Just the same as Im sure I could teach them a lot.

To me, accuracy is paramount. All the training on the planet will not get you to hit the target consistently. Shooting matches every weekend has given me confidence in my accuracy for real world scenarios.

I cant bring myself to agree with the comments that almost lead one to believe that comp shooters would not be able to use their skill set in "real life". I assure you, if a BG is shooting at me, I will not wait for a buzzer or someone to give me a "make ready" command before I start to defend myself.

I like the fact that training classes are an option for a regular Joe. I need to drag my ass to one sometime this year.

Check out sandberrgunranch .com I do most all my training there. Massad Ayoob is there every year I took his class and it is excellent. He also teaches you what to do after the shooting which most classes don't do in real detail. You have to train for both. Look at the Zimmernan case in Florida that says it all.

 

[downrange72]

It has been discussed before. I really didn't bring it up to complain about that incident. I do appreciate the sympathy. And I will be much more likely to come to competitions if I can run the courses with people known to me.

I really just brought it up as an extreme example of the different approaches toward shooting found among competitors vs people who attend a lot of training classes. (Yes I understand there is a lot of cross-over between those two populations) If I go to a competition without the intention (or strategy) to win, then it is not a lot different than setting up drills on my home range and working them with like-minded friends.

I do like that I don't have to set up the targets, there's someone to follow me around with the timer, and they track my performance. :-) And it does add a bit of stress.

I think it needed to be said again if we want to avoid this happening again to you or anyone else.

I've seen you shoot, and I know you are better than a lot of guys we shoot with. As Rhino said, shoot with Riverman67, Coach, or myself (which is usually Riverman67's squad at Riley).


Sorry for your bad experience.