Training the caveman vs. training the athlete

[roadrunner681]

I couldn't agree more, keep it simple and cheap! that way if all else fails a caveman can swing his rifle like a club!!!

that what im saying a ak makes a hell of a club if need be. and you can afford to practice a lot with a cheaper common round like 556 or 7.62x39 maybe even a 308 if you can afford the extra practice needed to control a full caliber battle rifle. and beside shooting is a lot more fun when you not thinking about the dollars going out the barrel and im sure having fun while training is a good thing.

 

[Steve MI]

I have to laugh over the slide stop vs slide release its about as dumb as 9mm vs 45 in my program I don't care what you do its the same end result ammo in the gun, that said the size and mechanics of the slide stop and magazine release are pretty much equal in size so how under stress do you push a button in vs push a lever down?

 

[Steve MI]

[h=3]Gunfighter Moment – Mike Pannone [/h]Saturday, April 20th, 2013
Examining the gross versus fine motor skills debateAnyone that wants to refine and enhance their chosen trade must follow this simple logical process of critical thinking: establish a desired end-state and then: know what you do, why you do it, how it works, where the common failure points are and why it is the best solution. Then you will be able to defend it against competing solutions or techniques when challenged. That is impossible when undefined or misdefined terms are used.
Often instructors will invoke the “fine versus gross motor skill” argument to justify or invalidate a technique without ever defining the terms. Truth be told many don’t even know what each term means. The below definitions should illuminate where these have gone awry and when they do properly apply.
Because the motor skills used for weapons handling at times may not lie specifically on one side or the other of the definition it is often taken as all skills are fine motor functions (think slow precise trigger pull on a precision shot versus a rapid pull of the trigger on a short range rapid string as an action using both). Two perfect examples of gross motor skills that are mischaracterized as fine motor skills are releasing the bolt via the bolt catch on an Stoner pattern rifle and the slide via the slide stop on a pistol. Neither involves “a refined use of the small muscles controlling the hand, fingers, and thumb.” Both are in fact either the use of the locked wrist, extended thumb and the entire arm on an M4 bolt release or the complete clenching of the hand on a pistol to release a slide stop given appropriate hand size or the use of the support side thumb to release the slide. Both when done properly place the hand on an anchor point on the weapon as a way to rapidly and precisely orient the active hand and thumb to the necessary location (tactile index points). Tactile index points are the magazine well on an M4, or a proper grip on a pistol when using either the dominant or support side thumb.
***How could a shooter effectively operate a trigger or magazine release on a pistol or carbine but not be able to operate the slide stop or bolt release?***
• “The term gross motor skills refer to the abilities usually acquired during infancy and early childhood as part of a child’s motor development. By the time they reach two years of age, almost all children are able to stand up, walk and run, walk up stairs, etc. These skills are built upon, improved and better controlled throughout early childhood, and continue in refinement throughout most of the individual’s years of development into adulthood. These gross movements come from large muscle groups and whole body movement.”
• “Fine motor skills can be defined as coordination of small muscle movements which occur e.g., in the fingers, usually in coordination with the eyes. In application to motor skills of hands (and fingers) the term dexterity is commonly used. The abilities which involve the use of the hands develop over time, starting with primitive gestures such as grabbing at objects to more precise activities that involve precise hand-eye coordination. Fine motor skills, are skills that involve a refined use of the small muscles controlling the hand, fingers, and thumb. The development of these skills allows one to be able to complete tasks such as writing, drawing, and buttoning.”
The terms used to frame a discussion and the definitions of those terms must be correct or all subsequent assertions will be incorrect. Skill and knowledge rarely exist apart from each other.
-Mike Pannone

 

[Fourtrax]

I don't get it. None of it. Slide release or not? 9 or 45. Caveman or athlete? I think training in some kind of self induced pressure (maybe competitions) is about all that's required. After that, it is what it is. Put a gun in your hand and manipulate the hell out of it, learn to shoot it, learn everything you can about it until it becomes an extension of your arm. This pretty much guarantees you about all that can be guaranteed. Reading about all this leaves me to believe that some just blah blah blah about anything. I say in any situation just be DECISIVE. Couple decisiveness with the aforementioned gun in hand plan and the rest is just crap. It's just one continuous pissing ego contest, designed to put money in some trainers hand.

 

[iChokePeople]

I don't get it. None of it. Slide release or not? 9 or 45. Caveman or athlete?
[snip]
Reading about all this leaves me to believe that some just blah blah blah about anything.
[snip]
It's just one continuous pissing ego contest, designed to put money in some trainers hand.

I feel you, bro. Sometimes it seems like that's the only thing people do on this site. Anything anyone posts, people just feel like they have to jump in and TALK about it. Blah, blah, blah.

 

[cedartop]

I don't get it. None of it. Slide release or not? 9 or 45. Caveman or athlete? I think training in some kind of self induced pressure (maybe competitions) is about all that's required. After that, it is what it is. Put a gun in your hand and manipulate the hell out of it, learn to shoot it, learn everything you can about it until it becomes an extension of your arm. This pretty much guarantees you about all that can be guaranteed. Reading about all this leaves me to believe that some just blah blah blah about anything. I say in any situation just be DECISIVE. Couple decisiveness with the aforementioned gun in hand plan and the rest is just crap. It's just one continuous pissing ego contest, designed to put money in some trainers hand.

So what would you prefer to talk about in the Tactics and Training subforum? What would you suggest to educate those of us who don't know it all?

 

[esrice]

Couple decisiveness with the aforementioned gun in hand plan and the rest is just crap.

Ahhh the Nike method-- Just Do It.

 

[cedartop]

Gunfighter Moment – Mike Pannone

.
-Mike Pannone

Steve, have you trained with Pannone yet? I plan on doing his advanced handgun class this summer.

 

[Steve MI]

Steve, have you trained with Pannone yet? I plan on doing his advanced handgun class this summer.

Mike is one of the last on my short list he will be at hosted at my home town gun club this june in Michigan
I know many that have and I have had a few conversations with him as well great guy

 

[Fourtrax]

Ahhh the Nike method-- Just Do It.

Yep, that's about it.

If a person spent all the time required to actually master all the stuff that's talked about, they'd have to live several lifetimes. Most definitely they would be at it 7 days a week 10-12 hours a day. Couple that with all the continual THINKING and DEBATING some of these people do and I'd be surprised they'd ever get out of their self imposed loop of bull**** when the poop hits the fan. I'm guessing they'd be thinking about All the minutiae and all the debates and EXACTLY what they should do to fit the threat and in that moment, well ............they'd just get dead.


So to answer another poster......I find this thread and all like it a continuos loop of bs. I would rather not see this sub forum at all.
But, thats just me being purely honest.

But, I understand this type of stuff floats some boats, and makes some people a little coin, so I don't begrudge anyone their opinions, I just have different opinions.

 

[Steve MI]

AHHHH ok

a simple investment in a good program of training learning the needs needed to practice and 10 minutes a day of dry work is all that is needed those who don't and cry foul etc, are simply lazy and full of there own ego, or they don't want to be shown what they don't know......

 

[cedartop]

Mike is one of the last on my short list he will be at hosted at my home town gun club this june in Michigan
I know many that have and I have had a few conversations with him as well great guy

I guess I will see you there then.

 

[Jackson]

Yep, that's about it.

If a person spent all the time required to actually master all the stuff that's talked about, they'd have to live several lifetimes. Most definitely they would be at it 7 days a week 10-12 hours a day. Couple that with all the continual THINKING and DEBATING some of these people do and I'd be surprised they'd ever get out of their self imposed loop of bull**** when the poop hits the fan. I'm guessing they'd be thinking about All the minutiae and all the debates and EXACTLY what they should do to fit the threat and in that moment, well ............they'd just get dead.


So to answer another poster......I find this thread and all like it a continuos loop of bs. I would rather not see this sub forum at all.
But, thats just me being purely honest.

But, I understand this type of stuff floats some boats, and makes some people a little coin, so I don't begrudge anyone their opinions, I just have different opinions.

I'd like to ask a few questions about the experiences that have brought you to these opinions. Please don't take this as me calling you out. I'm honestly interested in your point of view:

Have you taken any training? If so, may I ask what it was? Did you find any value in it?
Do you carry a gun for self defense?
What kind of practice and/or training do you think is adequate and appropriate for people who do?
Are you a competitive shooter? (I think you mentioned competition earlier in the thread.) If so, do you believe competition shooting is the best place to learn and practice for self defense with a firearm?
Have you ever used a firearm to defend yourself? If so, may I ask the circumstances?

 

[esrice]

So to answer another poster......I find this thread and all like it a continuos loop of bs. I would rather not see this sub forum at all.
But, thats just me being purely honest.

I realize the "magic talisman" mindset is popular amongst gun owners, but I've rarely seen it admitted so openly here in the T&T subforum.

 

[Jackson]

I'd like to ask a few questions about the experiences that have brought you to these opinions. Please don't take this as me calling you out. I'm honestly interested in your point of view:

Have you taken any training? If so, may I ask what it was? Did you find any value in it?
Do you carry a gun for self defense?
What kind of practice and/or training do you think is adequate and appropriate for people who do?
Are you a competitive shooter? (I think you mentioned competition earlier in the thread.) If so, do you believe competition shooting is the best place to learn and practice for self defense with a firearm?
Have you ever used a firearm to defend yourself? If so, may I ask the circumstances?

Looking through your posts has answered two of my questions. I see you are an accomplished competitve shooter and you have participated in training specific to competitive shooting. (Based on this post: https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/tactics-training/297859-eis-training.html#post4311467).

So, that being the case, I assume you do find value in training. You think it is worthwhile to learn competition-specific skills like stage breakdown, optimum target order for competition, how to deal with swingers and movers found on the competition range, etc. All topics that are very specific to competition shooting. Why then would it not be advantageous for someone wanting knowledge of fighting with a pistol to learn specific skills related to fighting with a pistol?

 

[lucky4034]

So here are the questions I would pose to INGOers--

Are these themes truly opposed or is there middle ground?

There is absolutely an middle ground and is called common sense (IMHO).... There are so many factors involved, but in all instances... one factor stands out and its "cost/benefit".

We are all limited by things... time, money, resources, natural ability etc.... If the cost of learning a technique outweighs the benefit you receive (in relation to the amount of time/money/resources etc...) then sticking to the caveman way seems like the logical solution.

For instance.... If you worked in an office and was tasked with sending out 500 pieces of mail a month... it would be worth your time and would be cost effective to learn how to use a computer, learn how to type and learn how to send out emails as opposed to writing each piece of mail by hand and licking expensive stamps and envelopes.

However... if you only had to send out a couple of small pieces of paper a year (provided you didn't need those skills for any other reason)... then it wouldn't make sense to spend 6 months becoming computer savvy because its "faster/easier" etc...

.............................


Conversely if the new super duper high speed 10 combo knife techniques take me 4 hours a week for 5 years to master and are only marginally better than the tried and true caveman kung fu I know now... (compounded by the slim probability I would need it).... then it might be better to spend that 1040hrs working on marksmanship, foraging for food, reloading bullets, practicing malfunction drills, making love to my wife etc....

As long as the cost/benefit is there, then by all means.

 

[Fourtrax]

Looking through your posts has answered two of my questions. I see you are an accomplished competitve shooter and you have participated in training specific to competitive shooting. (Based on this post: https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/tactics-training/297859-eis-training.html#post4311467).

So, that being the case, I assume you do find value in training. You think it is worthwhile to learn competition-specific skills like stage breakdown, optimum target order for competition, how to deal with swingers and movers found on the competition range, etc. All topics that are very specific to competition shooting. Why then would it not be advantageous for someone wanting knowledge of fighting with a pistol to learn specific skills related to fighting with a pistol?

Thats fair.

Yep, I've paid for lots of training. Lots. All competition type training. I guess my disconnect is I play a game and want to do good at it. In those efforts, I've learned gun handling at a high level. Some would say a very high level. Also, in that pursuit, I've put myself in about as stressful an environment as is possible while doing said gun handling.

My point is I feel it's much ado about nothing. Basically, I ask myself some simple questions. Do I carry? If I do, can I draw the weapon smoothly and efficiently 100% of the time? Once drawn, can I hit what I am aiming at? Now, do I seek out legal stressful environments and practice continually by putting myself in them? See, after this, I don't find the endless debates and minutiae all that important. I find, IMHO, all that to be a detriment to the task at hand if I would happen to be a victim of a violent crime. Which, we could debate statistics all day long, but the last I looked, left me feeling pretty good.

So to sum up, in a gunfight I'd want any number of my fellow competitors I know on my side instead of any of the endless debaters and minutiae infested tacticians. Although, if I found a tactical instructor that was also a serious competitor, I'd probably listen to him. I guess if I wanted some serious training in that regard, I'd call Coach.

To me, much of this is like what some colleges do. They invent programs for people to invest their time and money. At the end of the program, there just isn't much call for all that was learned. The college made some money though, so that's a plus, I guess.

As I stated before, this is IMHO.

 

[lucky4034]

So to sum up, in a gunfight I'd want on any number of competitors I know on my side instead of any of the endless debaters and minutiae infested tacticians. Although, if I found a tactical instructor that was also a serious competitor, I'd probably listen to him. I guess if I wanted some serious training, I'd call Coach.

Part of me agrees with you that when it comes to training... the basics and fundamentals are WAY more important than all the other crazy things trainers try to shove off. And you are probably accurate to say that you have acquired sufficient gun handling skills from the repetition of competition shooting.

However, there are plenty of things to be learned about self defense that are still "fundamental and basic" that you aren't getting in a shooting competition. Outside of fundamental gun handling, its apples and oranges....

 

[Cpt Caveman]

Haven't read all the posts in this thread but I just had to get in on it!

 

[Fourtrax]

Haven't read all the posts in this thread but I just had to get in on it!

Well lets hear it, get some!!